With ad hom attacks thrown in. Yes, I’m getting more militant on Treehugger – time for us ALL to heed Glen Reynold’s admonition to Conservatives and Libertarians to “punch back twice as hard” and that’s what the deal is here. Take the eco-socialists words and turn them right back on them. Make them come out and say what they feel and when they try and go hide, call them out and drop them in their tracks.
This is Part 5 and it will be the last of this Treehugger Retorts series in that post. Steve isn’t going to like it but it will be “long form”. Really long. Again, maybe I’m being a bit delusional but I’m hoping that by posting this, it will give some of you ideas on either 1) learning how to answer back these Self-Righteous Missionaries of Collectivism or 2) showing that confronting them right back shows that we can win these debates by rhetorically beating them into the ground. I know that I keep saying that I’m an introvert but on THIS battlefield, none of us can shirk away.
So here it goes – let’s pick up from Part 4 with a recap of FreedomEV’s getting-angrier-by-the-moment-because-he’s-being-challenged:
…Helping the poor creates wealth too and increases the market as they have money and can get a job, a place to live is better for everyone including those you mentioned.
Fact is you think taxes are great and have provided you with a decent country to live, make money in. No? So you lie off the bat.
Fact is you are only arguing the amount, no?
Or you think we can live well without them?
The selfish ones are those who foist their costs on others and they must pay. You’d be pissed if someone crashed into you and didn’t pay wouldn’t you?
What is the difference between that and FF companies poisoning us loosing 1.7yr of life US average? And rich people make far more pollution. Details you don’t let bother you as the rightwing nutjob you are, filled with hate you come here to harass people making the world better.
And you can’t stand that can you? Why?
Remember, this is a guy who does walk his own talk” and is fully into the electric vehicles and solar RE energy lifestyles. I’ll applaud him for that but not for his totalitarian and Socialist outlook that we should outsource ourselves to government. Thus, my point by point rebuttals to most of those points:
Fact is you think taxes are great and have provided you with a decent country to live, make money in.
No I don’t and if you’ve actually been reading what I write you’d know better. A limited govt, which I champion, requires far less taxes than the bloated one we have now (NH is pretty well under control except for the pension plan) and I did my part to make sure my town stayed within our family budgets.
If you haven’t looked lately (and I have), the Feds are taking in far more in revenue than even just a few years ago. The problem is that expenditures have skyrocketed with $7 Trillion we didn’t have spent in just the last few years.
And then poked him with the FAR more important issue that will hit in a couple of years, max, rather than Climate Apocalypse. See, they have blinkers on and can’t see what’s about to blindside them:
And THAT’S the lack of sustainability that will put a stake into the US FAR faster than “climate change”. It is here now and is an existential threat. Debt payment is already the 4th highest line item in the Federal budget and with the Federal Bank ready to hike interest rates, it will only go up.
So Bill, how great of a nation will we be when the entire budget goes for just interest payments??? When all of the social transfer payments (Social Security, the Federal dole) are moved to pay that debt, how great of a nation will we be then?
That’s why I just keep shaking my head concerning the climate apocalypse I’ve been told is happening for over 50 years without it happening and the DEBT CATASTROPHE is right in front of us?
And look who is talking about taxes – you boast that you live extremely cheaply and hardly have to work. Which means you pay next to nothing (or even nothing) and have become a free rider.
So, to my point, he merely waves his hands and shoves smoke out his butt by claiming that the concept of limited govt doesn’t work.
He also, at the end of my comment, gave me a DISQUS downvote. I’ll talk about that later but it was clear it was just the start of telling me “nonsense”. Actually it told everyone else he had been run out of the house with no answer.
See what I did there? Took him out of his knowledgebase. IF YOU DO YOUR HOMEWORK, you can basically silence your socialist opposition – they HAVE NO REAL ANSWERS. But you have to know your stuff AND you have to be willing to use that stuff! And you see with the last line, he tries to go into another area. BTW, the acronym FF stands for Fossil Fuels – the most hated companies in the world if you are an Eco-Socialist.
With 330mm people dude, government can’t be limited. We don’t live in the old west dude. Times have changed, try to keep up.
Fact is not helping those people end up costing more making YOUR taxes higher.
The debt problem is made by YOUR limited government types who want to put it so deeply debt it fails. What scumbags.
If you look at the debt most all of it is from cutting taxes, corporate welfare.
So you are good giving FF companies $600B/yr to poison us?
Several fallacies there:
The debt problem is made by YOUR limited government types who want to put it so deeply debt it fails. What scumbags.
Hardly. Before the start of the 1900s, govt expenditures were generally 2% of GDP. Once the Progressives (Socialists, that knew they couldn’t call themselves that) started to enlarge Government that that percentage started to rise because their ideology said that Government should be the primary Entity and that Individualism should die.
If you look at the debt most all of it is from cutting taxes, corporate welfare.
First off, whose money is it in the first place, that tax money? Shouldn’t they be able to keep it?
Or are you of the sort that Government should be in the business of determining, as Obama said, that after a certain amount, you’ve made enough (yeah, look at his bank account now that he’s retired)?
Have you even BOTHERED to look at the revenue and expenditure flows for the US since that time? We almost ALWAYS have higher revenues. The problem is that they keep raising expenditures even higher. That’s how debt happens. THAT’s where the debt comes from.
And those Progressives, by implementing a Federal income tax to continuously raise taxes, allowed the scumbags (both sides of the aisle) to keep spending more.
another retort / rebuttal on his push that ONLY a bigger, more intrusive govt can “herd us all” in the right direction – a fallacy if there ever was one:
As the Bible says, there is nothing new under the sun.
With 330mm people dude, government can’t be limited. We don’t live in the old west dude. Times have changed, try to keep up.
Really? Show me the studies that your supposition is true. Frankly, I have don’t think you have any proof at all. In fact, you make the case for me that you don’t trust your citizens, in general (and not the exceptions), and that no one can be self-reliant (even as YOU show the rest of that you are) on their own. Only dependency upon Government is what you are saying should be the norm. I disagree.
Technology has changed, the numbers have changed, but basic human nature hasn’t. In fact, the US Constitution, while laying out the form of the Federal Government, is oft spoken of as being one of the greatest sociological documents ever written about human nature.
Or have you never thought of it in that manner? And do you understand WHY? I’ll give you that it is a two part answer from two different foundational documents.
Nope, he never said why. So I taunted him a bit, because now he deserves it after abandoning the debate.
Downvote, eh freedomev? Not even an attempt at a rebuttal?
Or is that you realize that you can’t?
So, next point which was meant to change the subject. I don’t think he was ready for my answer:
So you are good giving FF companies $600B/yr to poison us?
Are you talking about the normal tax depreciations that all other companies can take advantage of as well? Take it up with your two US Senators and <insert proper number here> and US Representatives – they are the ones that craft the tax laws we have now.
You’re going down the wrong rat hole – I have said here in TH comments that I believe that ALL SUBSIDIES to all companies (willing to equivacate on defense contractors as defense of the country is a Constitutional mandate) should be ended. Period and full stop.
Government should not be picking winners and losers in the Private Sector.
Downvote. Again – starting to become a pattern. No answer. Again, the possibility of pointing out something he (and the others) don’t want to admit:
Oh, given the downvote, you WANT Govt to give all companies subsides, freedomev?
Or are you enamored with the idea that Govt should be directing and controlling the economy?
And back to the Government dole bit:
Helping the poor creates wealth too and increases the market as they have money and can get a job, a place to live is better for everyone including those you mentioned.
Helping the poor – by private sector means or by Government handouts, Bill? Which is better? Which is preferred?
And which is the least efficient and soul sapping in building an entitlement mentality that teaches nothing but dependency?
And yes, couldn’t even answer the 2 choice question? No rebuttal at all, just a “signaling” downvote.
And then he really let the cat out of the bag – no soul? Really?
Studies have proven that false. But I’d expect that from someone with no soul.
Both turned out to be throw away lines:
Studies have proven that false.
Given that I’m trying to comment on all your points, I’m not sure which of my comments you are claiming to be false. Please, if you would, elaborate?
But I’d expect that from someone with no soul
And this is rather puzzling – I’ve never known a Govt to have a soul. So by claiming that I have not a soul (haven’t the vaguest idea why), it is only because I politically disagree with you in that you believe that Govt HAS a soul?
For as I advocate for personal and not govt action, that makes me soulless? Or are you of the ilk, like Bernie Sanders, AOC, and many others, that ONLY Govt can “do good” and that the rest of us should outsource our Christian charity to faceless bureaucrats (whose only “charity” is just a job using other peoples’ money instead of their own)?
Downvote – no answer.
This next one needs a bit of explanation – he’s talking about polluters and the nuance is that ALL big companies are such. Doesn’t matter that Science can’t come up with any realistic costing of what each “polluter” (and yes, I agree there are those that do) streams on an individual level. Not do the THers ever try other then pulling numbers out of the air. But it is dogma for them.
But I pointed out there’s another class of folks that are FAR worse about foisting costs upon others:
The selfish ones are those who foist their costs on others and they must pay.
The MOST selfish are those Politicians and bureaucrats that believe they have the right and duty to take from one set of people simply to give to others.
And until a verifiable and equitable process to finitely determine individual costing of each type of pollution by polluter, the present political rush to do so is simply a political hack and a talking point. And as others here have pointed out, it ain’t been done yet.
French historian / political philosopher Alex De Tocqueville:
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury.”
And this is where we are now.
Yep, downvote with no rebuttal. Like I said, a pattern. With this, I keep pointing this out to what is a rather lively community of commenters here.
I dryly note now that not a single one of his co-socialists came to his rescue. Not one and not once. He was left to dangle out there. Very different for TH as, like Antifa on the streets, they generally swarm against opposing ideas.
But he did throw this out which made no sense as he supplied no context – just an ad hom:
So do nothing? What a knob.
Again, use their own actions and words against them:
So, no rational debate from you on the size and intrusiveness of Govt, eh?
So do nothing?
I said nothing of the sort. But what SHOULD be done is to decrease the size of govt at most levels (the local city / town level generally is the most efficient). Return to the question of “What is the Proper Role of Govt?” (at least here in the US, other countries are far different in type and history) and implement it.
You’d be surprised how small the Fed Govt would be if it returned to just doing what the Constitution says they should do – and only those things.
States have wider latitude in what they do – and many duplicate what the Feds do but within just their own borders. Federalism was implemented BECAUSE it was necessary to maintain States rights in holding to checks and balances such that Powers would not be aggregated to “the few”.
But the hardest part with that is at the Individual level – too many have outsourced THEIR responsibilities to Govt and expect others to do for them what they should be doing for themselves.
And with that “what a knob.” comment, you’ve proved that last sentence. Change my mind.
And it was also time to get rid of this other strawman argument:
What is the difference between that and FF companies poisoning us loosing 1.7yr of life US average?
Life expectancy was still rising until the both the Opioid epidemic and COVID hit the US.
Show us the studies that pull apart the OE and C19 data from your FF supposition.
Downvote. I have to think that he was getting rather angry at this point – could not supply a rebuttal.
So, change the subject!
Ignorance strikes again. We are only growing for the last 15? yrs from immigration.
Without it we’d be shrinking as most of the world.
Deflection again – notice how he keeps trying to change the subject to other than what he wrote. ALWAYS keep that in mind – stay focused and on topic:
Ignorance strikes again. We are only growing for the last 15? yrs from immigration.
Without it we’d be shrinking as most of the world.Funny, I’ve not mentioned immigration at all, nor birth rates.
Thanks for the irrelevant strawman argument to be on full display for everyone here.
Do I have to say it? Yep – downvote. And more ad hom. You can tell the desperation is seeping in.
And when I start using the real important stuff:
Details you don’t let bother you as the rightwing nutjob you are, filled with hate you come here to harass people making the world better.
What, that I believe in Constitutional values and want Govt to stay within its lane (which you obviously object to by your own words)?
That I want people to make their OWN decisions (and live with the results therein) instead of others forcing THEIR mandates on everyone?
That the original Proper Role of Govt (see above) has been perverted to thinking it IS the ability to legislate every single behavior of the Private Sector and Society?
Since when did that become “right wing”?
And I just LOVE the idea that simple political disagreement with you (and others) means that I’m a HATER? What a devaluation of the actual meaning of that word.
To a mere talking point so as to Other someone. I disagree with you, mostly, Bill but there are times we have agreed and I have publicly applauded those here at TH who are walking the talk.
So that makes me a Hater, Bill?
Unlike many here, I’ll reiterate, I want others to make their own decisions instead of forcing MY opinions upon them – that’s a HATER, Bill?
I’m going to enjoy you explaining that to everyone here.
Surprisingly, no downvote. No answer, but no downvote. Hoisting them on their own petards seems to do that. Not for long, but it can work.
And to his assertion that taxes seem to make a country great:
No, not taxes. That’s the LAST thing that makes a country great (unless “less of them” is a large part of the solution).
What makes a country Great? Respecting the Rights of its Citizens and not infringing upon them:
Try the Rule of Law. Try the Right to Private Property. Try the Freedom of Speech. Try the Right of Religious Belief. Try the Right to seek redress of your Government officials.
Shall I go on?
Nope, he didn’t – downvote again. Again, out of his element completely. But he did reply – nonsensical, but a reply
No, we know you are a nut job sociopath, like Chump. You believe in those things for thee but not for me, others.
Heh! Fish, Water, Barrel:
No, we know you are a nut job sociopath, like Chump. You believe in those things for thee but not for me, others.
Right. I keep saying that I want others to make their OWN decisions for them and their families. Have said that for years here at TH.
And THAT makes me a nut job sociopath?
So what is it about the Rule of Law, Freedom of Speech, the Right to Private Property, Redress of our Government officials, and Religious Beliefs that upsets you so much, sir?
They are the foundational underpinnings of our US Constitution, right?
So what about those things, and in believing in them, that makes me a sociopath?
C’mon man! Let us all know!
He has no self-awareness in this debate. Push them to the edge and that’s what happens. No answer at all except another downvote. So I called him out on it:
If you think that I care about getting downvote, let me set you straight – I don’t care. If as a signal that you disagree, that’s fine.
What it also signals is that you’ve run out of ideas that can rebut mine. As expected.
But it is ALSO a signal that you HATE (can I use those words) that people have Rights, that Govt should be limited and held to account, and that it should take as much from others so as to make sure that all the things YOU want it to do will happen.
Regardless of whether it should even be doing those things at all – especially for those things people no longer wish to do for themselves (but should be).
Good to know, sir! Each downvote is actually showing us all where you sit; VERY good to know.
Remember, sometimes the absence of something (as in the inability to defend your assertions) is even louder than the accusations.
And back a bit:
Helping the poor creates wealth too and increases the market as they have money and can get a job, a place to live is better for everyone including those you mentioned.
Fine – I have no problem with private charity. In fact, Charity is not a US Constitutional enumerated Power for the Federal Government.
States, however, can do such. Let them, if you are too stingy to voluntarily give out of the goodness of your heart. Which, I dryly note, seems to be the intent of your line – “let someone else do it like Govt. I will outsource my personal responsible to others – in this case, Government.”.
Again, downvote. And lastly, and in summary:
And with this, I think I have answered all of your points – politely and rationally without any ad hom return attacks:
filled with hate you come here to harass people making the world better.
Hate? Nope. Trust me, if I hated you, I’d be using a far different vocabulary. Instead, I merely am challenging assertions – and in this thread, each and every one that you just made about me and my political outlook.
And that, you don’t like. And given the ad hom and your other language, to whom should the word “hate” now being pointing to?
But to your point – losing one’s Rights and Liberties is not making the world better.
Forcing people to live in a manner they otherwise would not choose for themselves is not making the world a better place.
Deciding for others how they are to think and believe does not make the world a better place.
Stealing from some to simply give their stuff to others because of a distorted Robin Hood view does not make the world a better place.
A world without Freedom to Choose for oneself is not a world worth living in.
But all of those seem to be anathema to you. So, are you ready to rationally discuss all these points? After all, this IS a post about “equity” – all of my comments here speak exactly to it (maybe just not in terms that the Author expected).
Thus, I think that this is the longest post I have ever done and if not, close to it.
We HAVE to be able to talk about what is important – not only to us but to them as well. I find that many, like FreedomEV, don’t ever think of Life in this manner. It’s clear that they want what they want but haven’t moved the chess pieces on their board to see what the REAL endpoint would be if removing all of the things I brought up are removed. They might get their Eco-Utopia but probably not. But even if they do, what is the world they will have created for the rest of us with Rights and Liberties removed.
I’m hoping that with the silence of the other TH eco-Socialists that some of the above made a bit of an impact. I want to think that as no one else ventured into the debate. I want to think that some amount of hesitation cause some thoughts to happen that otherwise wouldn’t have.
But I’ll never know.
