And a wee bit of “I know more about RSA 91-A than he does”. Well, perhaps – she’s a lawyer and I’m not. However, sometimes engineers, who must be MORE precise than lawyers many times, can read simple English used in writing such laws. I will give her an A for trying to move the discussion into a more favorable ground for her than for me in which her arguments wouldn’t leak quite as much. Emphasis mine:
—— Original Message ——
From: “Atty. Barbara Loughman” <loughman@soulefirm.com>
To: “Skip” <Skip@granitegrok.com>
Cc: “Julie King” <jking@sau3.org>; “Karen Lancaster” <karen@soulefirm.com>; “Karen Lancaster” <karen@soulefirm.com>
Sent: 10/14/2022 4:08:07 PM
Subject: RE: Berlin PS/RTK/Gr.Gr.10.2.22req.Dear Mr. Murphy,
I know I promised to get back to you today on behalf of Berlin Public Schools regarding your RTK request below. I apologize for the delay and not having a complete answer for you today. I was out at a conference and hearings the last two days and have not been able to reach superintendent today.
Under the RTK law, government is required to produce governmental records upon request for any record reasonably described, provided it is not exempt from disclosure under RSA 91-A:5. RSA 91-A:4, I. We do not claim that any of the records you have requested are exempt, since all you are requesting is a record of the books and information about the books in the school libraries and classrooms.
The RTK law does not require government to produce records that do not already exist. The term public record refers to specific pre-existing files, documents or data in government’s files, not to information that might be gathered or compiled from numerous sources. Brent v Paquette, 132 NH 415, 426 (1989). See also: RSA 91-A:4, VII.
That last bit, from numerous sources, is important as you shall see. Don’t forget about it. But notice the change in emphasis she tries to pull off – from a card catalog containing all books to simply searching for a book one by one:
Library Books. The Berlin Public School libraries have a digital catalog of all the books in the libraries. Finding what you want in the catalog is easy. I believe the superintendent has already explained how to do that to you. I have also tried logging onto the digital catalog and found that anyone can use it. I believe that is sufficient to comply with your RTK request for the record of books in the school libraries. It is not unusual to refer persons requesting records that are on a government website to the website. See: RSA 91-A:4. While I do not think it is required to comply with the RTK law, because of the availability of the digital catalog, I believe the superintendent can also have the list of books in the elementary school library printed for you if you prefer a paper copy. I have been unable to reach her today to confirm whether the list will also include, or if there is a separate list of books in the middle-high school library that can be printed for you. The RTK law gives you the right to inspect the list at the SAU office and to have photocopies made. The SAU can charge you for the actual cost to the SAU of the photocopies, but not clerical costs. RSA 91-A:4, IV (d).
Not that she doesn’t even touch upon the “that a governmental body in possession of records is required to produce them in electronic media using standard common file formats: Green v. SAU #55, 168 N.H. 796, 801 (2016)” mentioned in my demand.
Your request includes a number of questions about the books. To the extent those answers appear in the digital catalog and printout, that information will be provided. However, if it is not included in the catalog/printout, the RTK law does not require the Berlin Public Schools to go through the books and compile that information for you.
Classroom Books. There is no record of books in teacher classrooms. The school does not maintain a list or lists of books that may be found in teacher classrooms.
I should be able to reach the superintendent by Monday and will get back to you. In the meantime, thank you for your patience.
Barbara
Barbara F. Loughman
Soule Leslie Kidder
PO Box 908
Wolfeboro, NH 03894
603-569-8044
Well, I wasn’t inclined to go down that path so I sent back a bit of a cheeky response – and also intimated there might be another RTK that wouldn’t play out very well at all if this iron-fist within a velvet glove was going to continue. So I decided to fisk her response. Payload at the end:
—– Original Message ——
From: “Skip” <Skip@granitegrok.com>
To: “Atty. Barbara Loughman” <loughman@soulefirm.com>
Cc: “Julie King” <jking@sau3.org>; “Karen Lancaster” <karen@soulefirm.com>; “Karen Lancaster” <karen@soulefirm.com>
Sent: 10/14/2022 8:11:49 PM
Subject: Re[2]: Berlin PS/RTK/Gr.Gr.10.2.22req.Good evening,
Under the RTK law, government is required to produce governmental records upon request for any record reasonably described, provided it is not exempt from disclosure under RSA 91-A:5. RSA 91-A:4, I. We do not claim that any of the records you have requested are exempt, since all you are requesting is a record of the books and information about the books in the school libraries and classrooms.
Whew! I am very glad to hear that a simple list of books, which constitute the responsive records I am demanding, with all the data elements listed in my RTK that are common to a card catalog, are not exempt.
The RTK law does not require government to produce records that do not already exist
Nor am I demanding records that do not exist be provided. You have just admitted (above) that such a list of responsive records (one record per book) is available in your library system. Thus, from RSA 91A:4:
IV. (a) Each public body or agency shall, upon request for any governmental record reasonably described, make available for inspection and copying any such governmental record within its files when such records are immediately available for such release.
(b) If a public body or agency is unable to make a governmental record available for immediate inspection and copying the public body or agency shall, within 5 business days of a request:
(1) Make such record available;In this case, all the Responsive Records that fit the demanded criteria.
(2) Deny the request; or
(3) Provide a written statement of the time reasonably necessary to determine whether the request shall be granted or denied and the reason for the delay.
(c) A public body or agency denying, in whole or part, inspection or copying of any record shall provide a written statement of the specific exemption authorizing the withholding of the record and a brief explanation of how the exemption applies to the record withheld.In light of the above…
The term public record refers to specific pre-existing files, documents or data in government’s files, not to information that might be gathered or compiled from numerous sources
And then I decided that going all technical on her was the better part of valor – and fun. I don’t think she expected the following:
Are you informing me that the data records and associated data elements within your library system’s schema don’t exist? Are you claiming that the distinct SQL tables residing in your single library system (normally and customarily considered to be “a point source”), along with the keys linking that data to other related tables for the entity colloquially known as a “book” within that same database system are to be viewed as “numerous sources“? Or are you claiming that none of that exists?
That’s a bit of a stretch. Are you also telling me that a file that traverses the necessary and existing data tables, linked by existing keys, that provides the demanded “list of Responsive Records” at the push of a button as “output” also doesn’t exist (e.g., a “Report”) in the Berlin System?
I HAVE the instructions that, as long as that file has not been removed from your system (which would ALSO be violating RSA 91A on record retention) to have that query file (e.g. a Report) output that list of Responsive records to a spreadsheet- are you saying that such directions don’t exist? Or saying that you are refusing to use that which is already part of your system?
Thus, I am not demanding records from “numerous sources” but are found with ONE source – your library system. Running a report is not “assembling data from “numerous sources”.
The Berlin Public School libraries have a digital catalog of all the books in the libraries. Finding what you want in the catalog is easy…I believe that is sufficient to comply with your RTK request for the record of books in the school libraries.
As I have already explained, that answer is insufficient for the purpose of my demand. I will repeat – it is for a listing of the books (and the demanded data elements as title, author, ISBN, et al) contained within the Berlin electronic card catalog. The receiver of such a demand is required to supply that demanded set of Responsive Records. It is not up to the demander to find them. The burden is on the receiver to comply.
Payload #1:
This is no different than when I have, in the past, demanded complete Municipal or School District payroll information from their accounting systems. Or are you holding that there is no similarity other than the subject matter? Remember, RSA 91A specifically calls out this kind of demand:
I-a. Records of any payment made to an employee of any public body or agency listed in RSA 91-A:1-a, VI(a)-(d), or to the employee’s agent or designee, upon the resignation, discharge, or retirement of the employee, paid in addition to regular salary and accrued vacation, sick, or other leave, shall immediately be made available without alteration for public inspection. All records of payments shall be available for public inspection notwithstanding that the matter may have been considered or acted upon in nonpublic session pursuant to RSA 91-A:3.
And yes, I seriously contemplated just sending that off – for both the School District and for the municipality. I guess she didn’t think I knew RSA 91-A as little as she thought I did.
And as the demander, I do not have to tell you WHAT I am looking for – your duty is to provide the information and not force me to do searches on your system to find out what I am looking for. Or are you going to dispute that as well?
I believe the superintendent can also have the list of books in the elementary school library printed for you if you prefer a paper copy.
No – I want you to follow the Law as written and as described in my Right To Know:
V. In the same manner as set forth in RSA 91-A:4, IV, any public body or agency which maintains governmental records in electronic format may, in lieu of providing original records, copy governmental records requested to electronic media using standard or common file formats
This was affirmed in the Green case that mandates that such electronically kept information must be provided using common file formats. Your existing query file (e.g., “Report”) creates a spreadsheet that can contain all of the Responsive Records that meet the specification I have provided.
Your request includes a number of questions about the books.
You are certainly amusing. I have made no “number of questions” – only one: are you going to provide the list of all of the books, with the demanded data elements commonly found in a card catalog, found in the District’s library system exported to a spreadsheet file?
In the meantime, thank you for your patience
I’m a retired engineer so I have the time and having raised two ADHD boys, I learned patience. But only to a point.
And now, Payload #2 – the embarrassment because I reached that point:
Right now, you are needlessly spending valuable taxpayer money in stalling for time in refusing to cough up a simple list of books that would take no longer than 3 minutes if you had complied from the get go. Add 5-10 minutes to create an email, attach that file, and email to me.
Should I start submitting a series of RTKs for the legal expenditures at the GL account level for paying your invoices to the District? And the complete audit trail for invoices, payments (of course, redacting any “privileged communications” from them – only financial totals of each instrument) and then start publicizing it locally as to why the District is spending THEIR hard earned money because you won’t fork over a list of books?
Happy to do so. I would rather, however, just get all the responsive records and get out of your hair. Your decision.
I was on my town’s Budget Committee for almost 10 years and actively monitored such GL transaction activity and when I saw wasteful spending, you can bet I let others know about it.
After all, it’s not the District’s money – it’s the taxpayers. At the rates you charge, it is now being wastefully spent.
Or, what are you hiding? I can write about that as well. Your decision.
-Skip
It would have been FAR simply (and cheaper) just to have the Superintendent tell a librarian to punch the Report button and send the report to me. Instead, even knowing that the card catalog was a permissible governmental record that falls under the Right To Know Law, she forgot her position of being a government employee that is supposed to serve the public – and not a title holder that allows her not open the Doors to her kingdom. Or queendom. Superintendentdom? I can’t keep all this PC/SJW made up words (made only to shut down debate and someone’s speech) straight. Nor do I wish to.
But I am right that it isn’t her’s in the first place – it’s the public’s.
And yes, there is a finale next post.
