So RedDiaperBaby and Jeemo, what say you now about Obamacare costs? Start groveling with abject apologies

by Skip

So commenters RedDiaperBaby and Jeemo Glewton didn’t believe my reporting on a couple of acquaintances of mine lamenting on the extremely high cost of their Obamacare plans as this year’s version is soaring in price (“So he works simply to pay his Obamacare bill? A “Have” paying for the “Have-Nots”).  Jeemo outright called me a liar as if I was just making stuff up. Both Progressives belittled both poor souls with arguments that they should go and become employees instead of owning their own businesses or just go “bare” and eat the penalty (right – Progressives showing their true sense of “compassion” for those that must suffer the failings of Progressive policies) or other ways of getting around my main point – the Affordable Care Act is absolutely not affordable if you are not being subsidized by taxpayers.

Well, here’s more of what I brought up.  I guess “Jeemo” is just going to call the NY Times liars as well, eh? Jeemo and RDB, just look at the costs being reported – they are STAGGERING (Emphasis mine, reformatted):

Middle-Class Families Confront Soaring Health Insurance Costs

Consumers here at first did not believe the health insurance premiums they saw when they went shopping for coverage this month on HealthCare.gov. Only five plans were available, and for a family of four with parents in their mid-30s, the cheapest plan went typically for more than $2,400 a month, nearly $30,000 a year.

Right in the range that I had talked about in my earlier post.  Once again, what say you, Jeemo and RedDiaperBaby?  Am I still lying? Or are you that far into the “Progressive policies can never be wrong” tank that you still won’t believe yer lyin’ eyes?

With the deadline for a decision less than a month away, consumers are desperately weighing their options, dismayed at the choices they have under the Affordable Care Act and convinced that political forces in Washington are toying with their health and well-being. “I believe in the Affordable Care Act; it worked for me under the Obama administration,” said Sara Stovall, 40, who does customer-support work for a small software company. “But it’s not working as it was supposed to. It’s being sabotaged, and I feel like a pawn.”

Oh, but it IS working as planned and written. Even as the Obama Administration simply ignored the law with multiple proclamations and Executive Orders combined with the “Secretary shall” regulations, this was doomed to fail and is doing EXACTLY what we said it would do – fail.  And then be used as the on-ramp to single payer.  Once again, govt screwing up something and then uproariously declare that only govt can fix it (now that govt broke it worse than Humpty Dumpty).  And no sabotage, and the Dems have been screaming, has been needed.  This is collapsing all on its own.

And here is a GREAT line – showing how bad it is (that line from Glenn Reynolds comes to mind: “they’ll make beggars of us all because we’ll be easier to control”):

Ms. Stovall said she might try to reduce her hours and income, so her family could qualify for subsidies on offer to poorer families to help pay for premiums.

Do less so that she can become MORE dependent on Government?  Is that really any way to live and be aspirational? Hey, it isn’t The Man keeping you down, it’s your own Government oppressing your aspirational outlook!  Really, forcing someone to make less – is that The Proper Role of Government?  And yet another example of Government intrusion and forcing behaviors that otherwise would not be needed if it just would stay out of the private sector:

…And even though he does not need an assistant for his work as a developer of mobile apps, Ian Dixon, 38, said he might hire an employee just so he could buy health insurance as a small business, at a cost far below what he and his family would have to pay on their own. “If one word captures all this, it’s ‘helpless,”’ Mr. Dixon said. “There’s rage and anger and all that stuff in there, too. Any reasonable person would agree that this should not be happening. And there’s no one to go talk to about it. There’s no hope that this is going to get fixed.”

And Obamacare IS working – and for exactly (and ONLY exactly) those that the Saul Alinsky philosophy care about – the “Have-Nots”:

The situation here in Charlottesville is an extreme example of a pattern that can be seen in other places around the country. The Affordable Care Act is working fairly well for people who receive subsidies in the form of tax credits, said Doug Gray, the executive director of the Virginia Association of Health Plans, which represents insurers. But for many others, especially many middle-class families, he said, “the premium is outrageous, and it’s unaffordable.

“We share their pain,” Michael M. Dudley, the president and chief executive of Optima Health, said of his Virginia customers now shopping for policies on the health law’s online exchange. “The rate increases are very high. We can’t minimize that because it’s a fact.”

Well of COURSE, when somebody is paying for you, it’s great!  Hey, no worries – I won’t see much of the bill.  It is a permanent Discount City time and nary a concern for those really paying the bill.  And just like my two acquaintances, the combination of the premiums and deductible make it unusable; they just as well just throw $1 bills into the wind for all the good it does them.  Look at this STAGGERING cost (again, median income in the US is around $32,000):

The Dixon family, which includes two girls ages 1 and 3, has been paying $988 a month this year for insurance provided by Anthem Blue Cross and Blue Shield. But Anthem plans will not be available in Charlottesville next year. The company told customers that uncertainty in the insurance market “does not provide the clarity and confidence we need to offer affordable coverage to our members.”

The online federal marketplace, HealthCare.gov, recommended another plan for Mr. Dixon in 2018. The new plan, offered by Optima Health, has premiums of $3,158 a month — about $37,900 a year — and an annual deductible of $9,200. Alternatively, Mr. Dixon could pick a lower-cost plan offered by Optima with premiums of about $2,500 a month, or $30,000 a year. But the deductible would be much higher. The Dixons would need to spend $14,400 a year for certain health care services before Optima would begin to pay.

So Jeemo, so RedDiaperBaby, are you going to offer to ante up $48,900 for the first policy or $4,400 for the “cheaper” one?  Go ahead, I’m waiting for your excuses to roll off your keyboards as you both become Obamacare apologists once again.  And in your outpouring of “compassion”, what will you do for this next case?

The Stovalls are facing similar mathematics.

Our premiums will triple to $3,000 a month, with a $12,000 deductible, and that is far, far out of reach for us,” Ms. Stovall said after researching the options for her family of four on HealthCare.gov. “We are not asking for free health insurance. All we want is a reasonable chance to buy it.”

I’m betting that is a multiple of what used to be a family’s most highest cost – their mortgage.  Yet, Jeemo and RedDiaperBaby just sniff at what is probably a terrifying situation for both families.  And here’s another – EXACTLY at the premium level my acquaintances are seeing:

Optima, a division of Sentara Healthcare, invited customers to share their personal stories on its Facebook page, and they obliged, with a fusillade of plaintive and sardonic comments. Bill Stanford, who works for a floor-covering business in Virginia Beach, said, “Optima Health Care just raised my premium from an absurd $1,767 a month to an obscene $2820.09 per month,” which is more than the mortgage payments on his home for a family of four.

 

 

And it doesn’t stop there:

She and her husband, both self-employed, expect to pay premiums of $32,000 a year for the cheapest Optima plan available to their family in 2018. That is two and a half times what they now pay Anthem. And the annual deductible, $14,400, will be four times as high.

But I’m betting this still isn’t enough for Jeemo and RedDiaperBaby – I’m betting their comments will be along the lines of either “suck it up” or “just die”.  Neither of them will really address the hardship these families are facing due to Progressive Government policies.  Remember, not ONE Republican voted for this – this is ALL on Progressives.

And once again, the poke in the eye:

Jill A. Hanken, a health lawyer at the Virginia Poverty Law Center, said, “People who qualify for premium tax credits are finding very affordable plans with low premiums, and those consumers are quite pleased.” But she added: “For people don’t qualify for tax credits, the cost of plans has truly skyrocketed. They can’t afford or don’t want to pay the high premiums.”

When someone else is subsidizing you, it’s always a fine ride.  Obama and the Democrats carried out Alinsky’s vision – reversing the positions of the Have-Nots and the Haves.

But did it really solve a problem? Not really – it simply just changed who was who.  The Have-Nots now Have and those that had enough to be self-reliant and paying their own way have been forced to become the new Have-Nots and paying a tremendous prices for the privilege for that change in economic status.

Is this really The Proper Role of Government (as if I really have to ask the question)?

 

Leave a Comment

  • Murphy Bans the Oppositon

    Idk skip you banned my account one of them was Red Diaper baby! So how can I respond?

    • granitegrok

      RedDiaperBaby has not (yet) been banned.

    • Bryan W

      Why do you need more than one account?

      • Ed Naile

        Because if his “girlfriend” finds out he isn’t doing anything all day but drinking and hanging out at he library – he is toast.
        It was all supposed to be left behind in Charlottesville but it cropped up again.
        Right Kevin?

  • Ed Naile
  • Moe Ferrel

    I am so sick of hearing about Obamacare costs. We were promised Obamacare repeal the first month of the Trump Administration and it looks like it’ll be still going strong a year later. I’m not sure this tax bill is going to make it through the Senate either. Time for another house cleaning.

  • Skip has managed the unlikely feat of quoting extensively from an article while completely missing its main point. He asserts:

    “not ONE Republican voted for this – this is ALL on Progressives.”

    What Skip fails to understand (and I really think that he’s not lying in this case, and is merely showing his ineptness in the areas of reading and cogitation) is that the families in this article were completely happy with the insurance provided by the ACA until Trump and his fellow dimbulbs, unable to repeal the law, elected to start actively destabilizing the insurance markets instead. They are quoted explicitly as saying so. And given that Trump overtly threatened on Twitter to do exactly this in a fit of pique after repeal attempt #2 went arse-up, it would be silly to argue that he did not follow though. (I know that these bloggers don’t fundamentally like Trump — Kimberly Morin appears to flat-out detest him — but have yoked their oxen to his sinking ship all the same, because party. So I don’t think I would have to fight very hard to convince them that Trump has said or done something dumb or dishonest with respect to health care law. There’s also the matter of the Trump admin’s attempts to keep people from even enrolling this fall by shutting down the website, which this article doesn’t even get into.)

    How did Skip miss this paragraph?

    “Congress’s repeated efforts to repeal President Barack Obama’s signature health law have rattled insurance markets. Actions by President Trump and his administration have added still more uncertainty. Now, Senate Republicans have attached a provision to their $1.5 trillion tax cut that would repeal the health law’s mandate that most Americans have health insurance or pay a penalty.”

    And how did he miss this?

    “[the head of Optima said that his company] is affected by the same factors destabilizing insurance markets elsewhere. These include President Trump’s decision to terminate certain federal subsidies paid to insurers and doubts about the future of the requirement for most Americans to have insurance — the individual mandate, which would be eliminated by the Senate Republicans’ tax bill.”

    The undercurrent — no, make that the theme — of the entire piece is “We were fine until Trump and those idiots started messing with this.” Leaving aside considerations of the ACA’s merits (it’s obviously not perfect, but nothing anyone tries to stuff into the present U.S. system stands a chance of being close to ideal) and whether or not Skip’s account of his handyman friend was true (I’ll believe it when said handyman tells his story to a credible media outlet rather than a chronically fact-challenged blogger), I’ll focus instead on this: The fact that Skip spent this much time blathering about an article that went completely over his head, one that says almost the exact opposite of what Skip seems to believe it says, should be alarming to Skip and his visitors alike. I suspect, however, that apart from the deluded commentariat, visitors to Granite Grok understand that it’s a complete joke and that its motley contributors routinely commit this type and degree of error and worse — and that’s when they’re actually trying to do genuine journalism.

    But of course Skip had to whine a little along with being oblivious to his own blog post:

    “Yet, Jeemo and RedDiaperBaby just sniff at what is probably a terrifying situation for both families…I’m betting their comments will be along the lines of either ‘suck it up’ or ‘just die.'”

    Nope. In fact, I would never suggest anything of the sort, not even for the twits in this electronic landfill; I shake my head at the whole sad mess — the ACA’s inherent shortcomings, the fact that Trump is trying to make a tenable situation tragic, and the fact that insurance execs are passing the blame along, as always. No one should have to consider working *less* and making *less* money to get better (or any!) healthcare. I will, however, invite Skip to wake up and look in the direction the author of the article and the people it profiles are actually pointing (hint: it’s not at progressives) before ranting next time.

  • Frito Pendejo

    Oh, but it IS working as planned and written.

    No, it really isn’t:

    Congress’s repeated efforts to repeal President Barack Obama’s signature health law have rattled insurance markets. Actions by President Trump and his administration have added still more uncertainty.

    You cherry-picked the NYT article, ignoring tidbits that don’t support your thesis. Such as this:

    Mr. Dudley said in an interview that Optima, a Virginia company, felt an obligation to continue serving Virginians when larger national insurers were pulling back. But, he said, Optima is affected by the same factors destabilizing insurance markets elsewhere. These include President Trump’s decision to terminate certain federal subsidies paid to insurers and doubts about the future of the requirement for most Americans to have insurance — the individual mandate, which would be eliminated by the Senate Republicans’ tax bill.

    And in the Charlottesville area, Mr. Dudley said, costs are high because many people receive care from an expensive academic medical center at the University of Virginia.

    Carolyn L. Engelhard, director of the health policy program at the university’s School of Medicine, acknowledged that teaching hospitals often charged more. But another factor, she said, is that Virginia has not regulated insurance rates as aggressively as some other states.

    I get why you skipped that, though; it neatly undercuts the “it’s all Obama’s fault” narrative.

    Look, no sane person would argue that the ACA isn’t a Frankenstein’s monster, chockablock with flaws. But to blame it and it alone for premium increases (which have been outstripping inflation for several decades now) is either naive or disingenuous.

    • granitegrok

      Actually, it was a Federal court judge that ruled that the CSR payments, although authorized by the Obamacare law, were unconstitutional. Why? Congress didn’t appropriate the money for it. Obama was still paying it and so did Trump. Now, he’s stopping it. Of COURSE it unsettled the government controlled (as opposed to Free) Marketplace. Aside from that, sure Trump cut the “advertising” budget by 90% – why should Govt be trying to manipulate (i.e., Progressives always complain that Big Companies “manipulate” consumers by advertising) consumers? And he shortened the signup time.

      If this was such a hot dog program, it should be able to stand on its own without government interference. “Unstabilizing” and “sabotaging” are the whines of those that want and demand Govt control.

      ANd I DO hope that they get rid of BOTH the Individual and Employee mandates. The idea that Govt FORCES me to buy a product that I otherwise would never buy is repugnant and totally anti-American. It is a signal of how far we have come from our originating ideas.

      The point of the post was to reinforce my earlier one – that Obamacare costs are skyrocketing for those that aren’t government subsidized. Are you STILL holding that I’m wrong?

      • Frito Pendejo

        If this was such a hot dog program, it should be able to stand on its own without government interference.

        I just acknowledged it’s anything but (“Frankenstein’s monster” is the phrase I used). It was intended to be a starting point for further improvement, not an end in itself. This administration, by its own admission, is doing all in its power to ensure such improvements never occur.

        • granitegrok

          There can be no “improvement” to such a government problem – it was legislated and regulated in such a way to fail on its own. “This administration” was elected in no small part by folks that want it gone and the power for individuals to decide for themselves devolved from the government that took it arbitrarily from them.

          • Frito Pendejo

            There can be no “improvement” to such a government problem – it was legislated and regulated in such a way to fail on its own.

            You’re claiming the ACA was “legislated and regulated in such a way to fail” – that is to say, deliberately. That would be an extraordinary claim. I’m not aware of any reporting from the time the bill was being drafted and debated that would support the thesis that it was deliberately designed to fail.

            Certainly, numerous kludges and work-arounds were necessary in order to retrofit the program to the existing bizarre insurance landscape. And sure, the law would require adjustments going forward; but that makes the ACA no different than every other major legislative initiative of the last sixty years. The Civil Rights Act of 1968, for example, underwent extensive revisions during the early years of the program to adjust the legislation to conditions on the ground.

    • Ed Naile

      You forgot to blame Bush and Halliburton.
      Remember your talking points!

      • Frito Pendejo

        Do you have any thoughts on the topic?

        • Ed Naile

          Yes, you forgot to blame Bush.

          • Frito Pendejo

            So that’s a “no” with regard to the subject under discussion.

          • Ed Naile

            That would be a “You forgot to blame Bush” regarding blaming anyone but Obama for ObamaCare’s failure.
            I am sure you can make a connection.
            Try harder.

          • Frito Pendejo

            That is utterly unrelated to anything I wrote. Try harder.

          • Ed Naile

            You make my point.
            Congress and Trump are not responsible for ObamaCare.
            It was a fraud created by a fraud – another Harvard grad, and a convicted criminal, Robert Creamer, who served time for bank fraud.
            But spin as you will. I am sure you can attach ObamaCare to Halliburton or the Koch brothers, try harder.
            Your type is good at this.
            http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2438
            I know you have a link from Huffpo that contradicts everything.
            ObamaCare was designed to fail and become government health insurance.

  • At first, I really thought that Skip, in his haste to put certain commenters in their place and hampered by his generalized reading and information-processing deficits, made an honest mistake here and really didn’t understand this article’s theme, which is hard to miss: “Here are some people who say they were happy with their insurance until the Trump admin started screwing with it, and now they can’t afford it.” But now, of course, in his responses to Frito, he’s trying to pretend he was on top of things all along. So maybe he was being duplicitous (again) from the beginning.

    Donald Trump — whom Skip and the others here don’t like, although this hasn’t stopped them from yoking themselves to Trump’s wagon of folly anyway thanks to their absolute loyalty to the dumbest candidate in any race — came right out and said in July that he intended to actively sabotage the ACA for at least those people his cruelties could immediately reach (if he could have undone all of Medicaid with a wave of his hand, he no doubt would have).

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-healthcare-trump/trump-threatens-to-end-insurance-payments-if-no-healthcare-bill-idUSKBN1AE0QQ

    Trump and co. have done exactly as promised, in part thanks to Trump’s blather and also by failing to supply useful alternatives to the law they’ve been unable to repeal. They have also tried discourage ACA enrollment by unpretentiously screwing with the government website. Yet Skip still wants to pin all the blame on Obama and the Dems:

    “It was legislated and regulated in such a way to fail on its own.”

    Fox “News” devotees and other echo-chamber impresarios love to trumpet the idea that the Dems wanted from the start to put in place a wreck of a law so that when it collapsed they could justify replacing it with an even more socialistic one. This makes zero political or other sense whatsoever.

    Skip dolorously suggests that people shouldn’t have to suffer and die thanks to messed-up health insurance laws, and I agree completely. However, he shrugs off the fact that Trump has explicitly used the structure of the ACA to cause people to potentially suffer and die — after Trump *promised he would do so*.

    The ACA is admittedly an imperfect law, and no law laced into the framework of the current U.S. system is going to work optimally. But here’s a general guideline for essayists: the next time you think a story supports your contentions, try to make sure it doesn’t actually contradict them before waxing triumphant. Try to focus more on the problems than on assigning blame, because paradoxically this often allows a mind clouded by bias to see its way to the real roots of problems.

    This particular aspect of the U.S. healthcare mess is not, as Skip proposes, the direct fault of the underwriters of the ACA. It is a direct consequence of Trump for behaving as the spiteful, incompetent bag of lies that he’s been all his life, and leveraging the ACA’s inherent flaws to try to both build credibility for his claims about the law and react like the overgrown infant he is. And even if it weren’t, the players in the Times story – the writer, the interviewees, the Optima exec – are saying that it is, making this the wrong piece to use as a source in any scenario.

    Think of it this way: If you built a country music nightclub that didn’t have as many emergency doors as it should, and I came in and started a fire on purpose to see how many people who like crappy music would be trapped inside, would it be fundamentally reasonable to blame the high death toll on you and not me? I think there would be plenty of blame to go around, but I’m pretty sure the arsonist would be the one overwhelmingly on the hook, especially if he bragged to his buddies beforehand that he was gonna set the fire.

    (Oh, as for me eating my words from a couple of weeks ago: as soon as I see Skip’s friend’s story on a credible website and not a blog populated by writers who continually misrepresent stories and facts, intentionally and otherwise, I’ll believe it. Either way, I do feel for the guy. But that vignette is not central to the greater picture here.)

    • Radical Moderate

      Dude, you’re way off base. The ungodly high deductibles existed BEFORE Trump was even elected President.

      • You didn’t read the article, did you?

        “Bill Stanford, who works for a floor-covering business in Virginia Beach, said, “Optima Health Care just raised my premium from an absurd $1,767 a month to an obscene $2820.09 per month.”

        ““Our premiums will triple to $3,000 a month, with a $12,000 deductible, and that is far, far out of reach for us,” Ms. Stovall said.”

        Whatever problems existed in the fabric of the ACA before this year (and people for the most part knew what these were) have become markedly worse since Trump took over and 1) watched as Congress repeatedly bungled the repeal-and-replace, and then 2) starting spewing crap about wrecking a supposedly dead piece of legislation (none of his fans, of course, noticed the logical contradiction there). This is exactly what the article is about. Skip, not the world’s most adept reader, concluded that it was actually about intrinsic problems with the ACA rather than about Trump leveraging these in a way that’s very costly to lots of Americans.

        • Radical Moderate

          I did read the article. The difference is that you see the problems in the ACA as being exacerbated by President Trump. I see the uptick in premiums and deductibles as a progression of the ACA’s inherent design.
          How do we know President Trump is not to blame?
          Simple.
          We all predicted this exact thing would happen because we knew that’s what it was designed to do right from the start.
          Way before Donald Trump was even a candidate.

          • granitegrok

            Bingo! We’ve been saying this before this “Single Payer Trojan Horse” was spawned by the Progressive controlled House, Senate, and Oval Office. We saw clearly what was going to happen – now you are trying to blame-shift. Ain’t gonna work after watching these uplifts in both premiums and deductibles for YEARS. The Dems couldn’t front load the revenues any more than they did to hide things that have now shown their bigly ugly faces.

          • granitegrok

            And he’s just tired of getting rhetorically spanked at every turn.

          • That’s right! This gang, its collective fifth-grade communication skills notwithstanding, just runs rhetorical circles around everyone who introduces any skepticism about the mounds of manure produced every day, and we interlopers can’t handle it. Steve’s misrepresentation and misunderstanding of climate science, you and others actually treating Gateway Pundit as a credible source of information, Ed’s babble about nonexistent voter fraud; people who live in the real world just feel horribly defeated by the hammers of logic wielded by birthers, ersatz Christians, sexists, hypocrites, and liars.

            Alternatively, there’s a more cogent take, which makes better use of Occam’s razor: this place is a noisy, insular mosh pit of misguided rage and obvious misinformation and disinformation. The fact that the bloggers and core commenters here never propound their ideas anywhere but here on Granite Grok is very telling to those of us who aren’t members of this little delusional community. You have your little “radio shows” and guest posts all involving the same kinds of drones all the time, yet if it weren’t for Granite Grok itself, no one here would have a platform at all. To reasonable people, this would suggest errors in content or approach, but not to you people.

            How many years have you been screaming and yelling without ever being taken seriously? To the extent that you’re noticed it all, it’s the local media pointing out that someone here said something regrettably stupid or mainstream Republicans laughing at you. I realize that a committed zealot can merely take this as a sign that he’s succeeding instead of failing by claiming the mantle of underappreciated visionary. Well, people who comment in ways signifying clinical levels of paranoia are not visionaries, they’re crazy.

          • Radical Moderate

            Nice screed.
            However, no rebuttal to my response to your post.

          • Ed Naile

            And you are drunk.
            BUT, you managed to only reference excrement once!!
            Personal growth is slow with this one.

          • At some level, maybe, you have an appreciation of your own bad yet internally airtight logic.

            People like you have long been saying that *everything* Obama has a hand in is destined to fail, and that he meant it from the start.

            Therefore, when anything he’s backed or created goes awry in any way, you can claim it was intentional because his critics predicted it — never mind that you could easily say this about anything. If you roundly decide that a given figure is purely evil, you can then neatly blame him for everything that follows. If you heard that Obama planned for racial tensions to increase markedly after he left office, however inane an idea this is, you can blame him for the violence Charlottesville and the emboldening of white supremacists. Classic “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacious reasoning.

            Never mind that Trump and his cronies have been taking steps to exploit inherent weaknesses in the ACA for political gain, and not even hiding it. And never mind that even right-leaning scholars agree that real-time destabilization of the markets is a real thing.

            Never mind also that it makes no sense (except in the minds of conspiracy loons) that the Dems would set up something to fail so that they could then gain momentum to pass something similar yet with far more reach, like they would build trust by concocting an intentionally ramshackle ACA, and as if they thought a Republican would win the WH in 2016. You’re basically saying that a babysitter who wants to expand her business employs a strategy of beating the kids she takes care of so that more people will hire her to make sure their kids remain unharmed. It’s not merely wrong, but perversely so.

            One thing you’re correct about is that the ACA was never meant to make healthcare cheaper and more accessible to every single American. It has its obvious warts. But did Obama or anyone promise it would be the greatest thing ever, anywhere? No. But did Donald Trump promise on “60 Minutes” that “We’re going to have insurance for everybody. There was a philosophy in some circles that if you can’t pay for it, you don’t get it. That’s not going to happen with us”? Or was that interview a holographic projection or optical illusion?

            By maintaining the ludicrous idea that Dems and progressives are responsible for any and all problems in government, you only look increasingly silly. The complete shambles of this presidency are obvious to anyone and everyone: No border wall, no elimination of ISIS, no ACA repeal, and that does not even get at the point that Trump himself is dumb to the point of most likely qualifying as mentally retarded (dementia may be a part of this, but he’s always been this dumb). Yet you want to blame Obama? It’s actually very funny, in a sad way, that people can watch the chaos that is today’s GOP and somehow chalk this up to policies and ideas perpetrated by Dems.

        • sb

          What you are ignoring (or are ignorant about) is that obama deliberately did not enforce and postponed many aspects of obamacare that would have made things worse while he was still president, so that it could look better than it really is while he was in office.

          You also seem to think that “absurd” is WAY better than “obscene”.

          You also seem to think that taking money from one citizen to pay for somebody else’s “free or discounted” premiums is A-OK and “working well”. You’re nuts!

          • “obama deliberately did not enforce and postponed many aspects of obamacare that would have made things worse while he was still president”

            He did? Like what?

            “You also seem to think that taking money from one citizen to pay for somebody else’s ‘free or discounted’ premiums is A-OK and ‘working well’. You’re nuts!”

            I’m nuts for understanding how insurance works? Interesting take.

          • sb

            1. http://thefederalist.com/2017/08/15/president-trump-needs-stop-breaking-law-obamacare-like-obama/

            2. That is not how insurance works. Insurance works by you, me, Skip, Steve, Bruce, RadMod, Allen, Ed, Kim, et al each paying a premium, let’s say $200, every month into a pool, and when something happens to one of us, our medical bills get paid after we pay a deductible, let’s say $500. Navy Nuke and Kathleen pay $50 a month but only get catastrophic coverage so won’t be looking for help paying for any bills except catastrophic.

            Obamacare, however, runs something like this: You, me, Skip, and Steve are forced to pay $1,000 per month and have a $9,000 deductible, Bruce and RadMod pay $100 a month and have a $50 deductible, and Allen, Ed, and Kim pay 0 monthly and have no deductible at all. Navy Nuke and Kathleen pay nothing and have no insurance at all because they are pretty healthy and they don’t want or need prenatal maternity and sex change coverage and refuse to pay for something they won’t use. They need to pay a fine, however, for not buying a very expensive product they won’t use.

            Why does group #1 pay so much and the others so little or nothing at all? Because group #1 is paying for groups 2 and 3’s share of the $200 monthly premiums and deductibles. Groups 2 and 3 don’t have “cheaper” insurance. It costs exactly the same as Group 1’s insurance except government is forcing Group 1 to pay for Group 1, Group 2, and Group 3’s insurance. Group 4 just hopes and prays nothing bad happens while waiting for this mess to get straightened out.

            Redistribution at its finest. And if you don’t see that, it is because you are a partisan hack.

          • Ed Naile

            Kevin:
            You are so good at reading comprehension!
            How about this one:
            Boulder, Colorado Ordinances
            5-7-2. – Possession and Consumption of Alcoholic Beverages in Public Prohibited.
            5-4-3 Trespass.
            No person shall:
            (a) Enter or remain upon land or premises other than a dwelling of another in defiance of a legal request or order by the owner or some other authorized person; or
            (b) Enter into or upon land or a building other than a dwelling that is posted, locked, or otherwise fenced or enclosed in such a manner that a reasonably prudent person would understand that the owner does not want any such person on the land or in the building.
            Was someone drunk at the library?
            Did they get asked to leave and refused?
            What gives?

          • Radical Moderate

            One issue that needs to be mentioned about how this entire thing happened. All the scenarios sb mentioned above are correct. Many years before Obamacare came into being all the negative costs were being absorbed by hospitals around the country who were then forced to use them as tax write offs against their profits. This worked until the negative costs outpaced the ability to write them off against their taxes which was caused by an ever growing number of illegals (especially California) using our healthcare system without paying. You can imagine the rate that which this theft of healthcare services compounded over the years. The hospitals began to file for bankruptcy at an increasing rate which caused their lobbyists to put pressure on the politicians in DC.
            At he same times the lobbyists for the US Chamber of Commerce and US/Global Corporate interests began pushing the politicians in DC to create a single payer system so business would not be responsible for offering (paying half of) health insurance to their employees.
            Then the States and cities started clamoring to the politicians in DC because the cost of municipal employees became increasingly unsustainable due to the fact that the money earmarked for employee healthcare had to be used for the growing illegal/refugee population in the US.
            Then one (so called Republican) Governor of Massachusetts by the name of Romney who was a Globalist/Corporate worm decided to slit our country’s throat and created the first state run healthcare system called the GIC which caused all the public employees to be thrown into the same medical system with the medical system used by welfare recipients.
            Then a young US President with Marxist leanings saw what Romney had done in Massachusetts and asked him to help push a similar plan for the entire country.
            Now you know how we ended up in this mess.

          • Bruce Currie

            Pardon, but your paranoia (not to mention the obligatory misuse of a political science term of reference) is showing: “a young US President with Marxist leanings saw what Romney had done….”It’s a lovely story, but it ignores one very pertinent fact: the origin of both RomneyCare and Obamacare was in that hotbed of Marxist thought–Heritage Foundation. It was a Republican plan before it was a centrist Democrat plan. Of course, you’ll hand wave and dismiss this by claiming Heritage is part of the globalist plot too. Have at it. And whatever you do, don’t take time to ponder another inconvenient fact: countries with single payer spend half or less of their GDP than we do, with better outcomes. Go figure: maybe there really are some things that markets don’t do well.

          • Radical Moderate

            Bruce you make the baseless allegation that I look at Globalism like its some conspiratorial type of plot when you yourself have come here time and time again making the case that the top 1% regularly conspire to shaft working class Americans. But when I make the case that part of being in that 1% is an allegiance to the Globalist principles of open border markets and free flow of international labor it is you that “hand wave” it away as if it’s all just a “coincidence” that these groups regularly meet to stratagize how best to push their agenda.
            The Heritage Foundation’s board is loaded with pro open borders big money Establishmentarians.

            Thomas A. Saunders III who heads the private equity firm Saunders Karp & Megrue and is a former managing director of Morgan Stanley.

            Barb Van Andel-Gaby is a former Amway executive.

            Meg Allen owns an investment company in Geneva that specializes in establishing joint ventures in China.

            Larry P. Arnn, president of Hillsdale College.

            Ed Feulner, the former president for 40 years, who oversaw the attraction by Heritage of large financial support from China.

            Steve Forbes, the head of Forbes magazine.

            Michael W. Gleba, chairman and chief executive officer of the Sarah Scaife Foundation.

            Ryan Haggerty, an investment manager.

            Virginia Heckman, a commercial real estate developer.

            Todd W. Herrick, retired chairman and president Tecumseh Products Co.

            Jerry Hume, chairman of the board, Basic American Inc., an international food service company based in San Francisco.

            Kay Coles James, former director of the federal Office of Personnel Management.

            Mark A. Kolokotrones, founder and president, Castle Knoll Investments LLC, a financial investment firm.

            Rebekah A. Mercer, the director of the Mercer Family Foundation.

            J. William Middendorf II, who bills hjimself as “an intellectual force behind the North American Free Trade Agreement.”

            Abby Spencer Moffat, chief executive officer of the Diana Davis Spencer Foundation, which evolved from the Shelby Cullom Davis Foundation.

            Nersi Nazari, chairman of Vital Connect, Inc., a Silicon Valley entrepreneur.

            Robert Pennington, former vice president of Dean Witter.

            Anthony J. Saliba, chief executive officer of LiquidPoint, a Chicago-based options technology company.

            Brian Tracy, founder of Brian Tracy International.

            William L. Walton, founder and chairman of Rappahannock Ventures LLC, a private equity firm.

            David R. Brown, M.D., an orthopedic surgeon from Oklahoma.

            You then make another baseless allegation that I fail to recognize where the push for single payer healthcare originated when I clearly explained that BOTH sides worked together to bring it to fruition. BOTH sides saw an advantage to having it.
            You then go on to make the same tired comparison of America to other countries that have single payer healthcare when the only thing these countries have with America is that they all have “people” in them. You know the countries you hold up as beacons of single payer healthcare have totally different forms of government than our Constitutional Republic and have homogeneous or otherwise cohesive populations.
            It is you that contradicts yourself on a constant basis.

          • Bruce Currie

            Even a cursory look a the people on the board at Heritage shows that a number have firm roots in libertarianism or right wing politics: Steve Forbes, anyone connected with Amway (the DeVos fortune), Hillsdale College, Rebecca Mercer(!). And that’s just for starters. To paint these people as somehow part of a left-wing globalist conspiracy is nuts.

            A right-wing, market$$-based conspiracy would be more like it. Because laissez-faire corporate state capitalism does not work with a representative democracy, these are the ones who’ve been working hard to undo the New Deal era reforms that salvaged capitalism by ameliorating its worst excesses. Now, all signs point to the fact we have reached the late innings for free market capitalism, and Nature bats last.

            The ACA was intended by Heritage wonks to head off calls for single-payer. The Democrats turned it into a feeding frenzy for the rent extracting class of Big Pharma and the hospital/ insurance complex. By the time centrist Democrats embraced it, the GOP had moved further rightward, and wanted no part of an insurance mandate that they’d espoused a decade earlier.

          • sb

            Not directed at you Bruce, but why is RadMod’s comment hidden and unable to be replied to?

          • granitegrok

            I don’t know – it happens when DISQUS decides something has to be checked and I have to manually go look at at it to see if it was a “bad word” or a link it doesn’t like. Sometimes, it just isn’t there (sigh….).

            Will go look now.

          • granitegrok

            It’s not showing up as having to be moderated in Disqus….hmmmm. I can see it, SB. Let me put it here:

            Radical Moderate Bruce Currie • 2 hours ago
            Bruce you make the baseless allegation that I look at Globalism like its some conspiratorial type of plot when you yourself have come here time and time again making the case that the top 1% regularly conspire to shaft working class Americans. But when I make the case that part of being in that 1% is an allegiance to the Globalist principles of open border markets and free flow of international labor it is you that “hand wave” it away as if it’s all just a “coincidence” that these groups regularly meet to stratagize how best to push their agenda.
            The Heritage Foundation’s board is loaded with pro open borders big money Establishmentarians.

            Thomas A. Saunders III who heads the private equity firm Saunders Karp & Megrue and is a former managing director of Morgan Stanley.

            Barb Van Andel-Gaby is a former Amway executive.

            Meg Allen owns an investment company in Geneva that specializes in establishing joint ventures in China.

            Larry P. Arnn, president of Hillsdale College.

            Ed Feulner, the former president for 40 years, who oversaw the attraction by Heritage of large financial support from China.

            Steve Forbes, the head of Forbes magazine.

            Michael W. Gleba, chairman and chief executive officer of the Sarah Scaife Foundation.

            Ryan Haggerty, an investment manager.

            Virginia Heckman, a commercial real estate developer.

            Todd W. Herrick, retired chairman and president Tecumseh Products Co.

            Jerry Hume, chairman of the board, Basic American Inc., an international food service company based in San Francisco.

            Kay Coles James, former director of the federal Office of Personnel Management.

            Mark A. Kolokotrones, founder and president, Castle Knoll Investments LLC, a financial investment firm.

            Rebekah A. Mercer, the director of the Mercer Family Foundation.

            J. William Middendorf II, who bills hjimself as “an intellectual force behind the North American Free Trade Agreement.”

            Abby Spencer Moffat, chief executive officer of the Diana Davis Spencer Foundation, which evolved from the Shelby Cullom Davis Foundation.

            Nersi Nazari, chairman of Vital Connect, Inc., a Silicon Valley entrepreneur.

            Robert Pennington, former vice president of Dean Witter.

            Anthony J. Saliba, chief executive officer of LiquidPoint, a Chicago-based options technology company.

            Brian Tracy, founder of Brian Tracy International.

            William L. Walton, founder and chairman of Rappahannock Ventures LLC, a private equity firm.

            David R. Brown, M.D., an orthopedic surgeon from Oklahoma.

            You then make another baseless allegation that I fail to recognize where the push for single payer healthcare originated when I clearly explained that BOTH sides worked together to bring it to fruition. BOTH sides saw an advantage to having it.
            You then go on to make the same tired comparison of America to other countries that have single payer healthcare when the only thing these countries have with America is that they all have “people” in them. You know the countries you hold up as beacons of single payer healthcare have totally different forms of government than our Constitutional Republic and have homogeneous or otherwise cohesive populations.
            It is you that contradicts yourself on a constant basis.

          • Radical Moderate

            Thank you for reprinting my post. I don’t know why it occasionally occurs but I am posting no differently that always if that helps to narrow it down.
            – To the Crew at GG a Happy and Healthy Thanksgiving to you and yours!

          • sb

            Thanks, Skip. I see this:
            This comment is awaiting moderation. Show comment.

            I can click on “Show comment” and then see it, but I am not offered the “Reply” option. Very strange but thank you for reposting it in case anyone else has troubles.

            Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family! I’ll mention that among many other things, I am grateful to be a part of your Grok family of contributors and commenters. Always happy to be here! 🙂

            Edit to add: I also have this same thing showing for Murphy Bans the Opposition’s post and for one of Jeemo Glewton’s posts. I didn’t think anything of it for these two as I thought maybe you did that.

          • Radical Moderate

            Happy and Healthy Thanksgiving to your and yours sb!

          • sb

            Thank you Rad Mod and happy and healthy Thanksgiving to you and your family as well! 🙂

          • Radical Moderate

            “To paint these people as somehow part of a left-wing globalist conspiracy is nuts.”
            I didn’t say Globalism is a “left-wing” conspiracy. Once again you use that word “conspiracy” when its very much out in the open that the adherents of “Globalism” meet regularly and publicly in order to stratagize on how best to tear down all National barriers. Your use of the word “conspiracy” is wrong because they are not planning to commit a “crime”. They do however plot to undermine the principles of Nationalism and subvert the will of any ethnic majority populations on a global scale. Before you slide into thinking I’m referring only about White Europeans, I am also referring to the wholesale theft and rape of Africa by the Globalist forces an spearheaded by the Chinese.
            I give you credit for finally calling out the Democrats for being as guilty as the Establishment Republicans which took forever to drag out of you. This should prove one thing. Greed knows know Party because Greed is a human condition. Power exacerbates that condition That’s why we should keep Government as much out of our lives as possible.
            I don’t understand how you can be for more Government intervention and control in our lives when I know based on your posts that you recognize that the situation will not be able to change as long as there are people with power involved in the mix. That’s why I say you contradict yourself.
            In my mind it’s safer to suffer the consequences of Government not being involved our lives than being in control of our lives.
            A conversation about the New Deal is a topic for another day. I’m sure that topic would be a charged one and ripe for debate.
            – Happy and healthy Thanksgiving to you and yours Bruce.

    • Moe Ferrel

      Your entire post is garbage. Obamacare was broken and killing people long before Trump. Some day the number of people Obama killed with his crappy “health”care program will be tallied and he will go down as America’s Stalin.

      • Bruce Currie

        IMHO, your post earns the day’s award as most outrageously whacked out in Grokland. Congratulations. Considering the competition, that’s no mean feat.

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