About All That Ron Paul Business…

by Steve MacDonald

I’m not following the story about the minority faction of Ron Paul delegates to the RNC.  I don’t watch debates or conventions…it’s easier to wait for the highlight reels.  But I see updates on Facebook and email threads on the topic and I have two thoughts.

First, it is obvious that for months the Ron Paul supporters have been plotting to get their guy the nomination anyway, even though he didn’t get enough national delegates to guarantee him a speaking spot.  They have been begging delegates to vote Ron Paul for months. But the problem with Ron Paul is not Ron Paul at all, it is his supporters, and it always has been…which brings me to point two.

With only a few minor tweaks, there is nothing at all wrong with Ron Paul’s political agenda.  Most Republicans or Conservatives would enjoy a Ron Paul Presidency.  So what happened?  The messengers killed the candidate.

Right out of the gate Ron Paul supporters began insulting regular Republicans by openly recruiting (begging?) Democrats to vote in Republican primaries (where possible) to pollute the results in favor of Ron Paul, who they insisted, shared enough policy positions or values with Democrats on enough issues to warrant their support.

There is very little debate with a Ron Paul Supporter.  If you do not grasp the greatness of the Paul Agenda you are an illiterate dupe with the wrong kinds of books on your reading list.  If you object, regardless of your reasons, you are a neo-con stooge or just too stupid to vote.  If you persist you will be insulted, sworn at, or the RP supporter will abandon the debate…because you are not worthy of their time.

Their embrace of the Occupy movement from early on revealed many of them to be ignorant anarchists so willing to embrace any movement that might lift up their candidate that they ignored the prime intent of Occupy…to advance a socialist Democrat supported movement based on intimidation and violence by a minority faction, that empowered the centrally planned government to give them stuff at the expense of others.  Even taking the movement over for more libertarian principals could never wash away the public taint of rape, murder, and the general public nuisance that became the face of Occupy.  Republicans and independents were listening, and this only added to the distance they wanted to put between themselves and Ron Paul’s supporters.

The core of the Ron Paul campaign and the most active proponents in social media, could be irascible intolerant, elitist trolls bathed in a cult of personality as frightening as the one that elevated Obama.  Just as irascible and intolerant as the liberal Democrats who defend Obama no matter what, and continue to do so to this day.  Republicans are not interested in replacing one obsessive intolerant cult of personality with another, particularly after Ron Paul’s campaign courted democrats to pollute Republican Primaries, embraced Occupy, and insulted everyone who wasn’t convinced to ride on their particular beam of Ron Paul radiance.

Accusing supporters of other candidates of being party to conspiracy theories, local, national , or global, to stop their guy,  just makes you all look like a Kooks.

There were a lot of primary candidates.  Only one could win.  Only one did, and yet no one else, regardless of differences, (because Obama has to go) is behaving like a room full of per-schoolers who just lost their snack privileges.

And even now, the messengers continued to kill the message and even future candidates.

Rand Paul has an excellent chance to be President some day and I would enjoy watching the sun rise upon that day, but if this kind of crap keeps up (see below), the messengers will not only have ruined Ron Paul’s’ chances they will have ruined Rand Paul’s as well.

Case in point: Larry Reed. Larry Reed’s Facebook page says that he “works for Ron Paul 2012.”  This is what he posted on a NH TEA Party Facebook Page last night.

Larry Reid  from Ron Paul 2012 tells us to go f**k ourselves

Larry Reid from Ron Paul 2012 tells us to go f**k ourselves

Larry is indicative of a core problem with the movement. He is an intolerant ass, and a cry-baby, so short sighted in his obsession, that he cannot see past today to grasp the long game.  He want’s his goose that lays the golden egg now, and if cannot have it he is going to scream.

As we can see from his remarks, he is screaming, and just for bratty good measure, disowning any responsibility he or his movement might have should Obama win re-election.

“Just wait because Obama is going to do that for you and you made it so.”

I suspect, like many so-called liberty supporters in the Ron Paul movement, that if he votes at all it will be for Gary Johnson. He will do this out of spite, if at all.   And if Obama does win because Johnson siphoned off enough votes to prevent an Obama defeat, he will sit back and smile while Obama dismantles what is left of the country, potentially removing any chance we may ever have at attaining any of the goals he claims to have supported.

F the TEA Party, F liberty and F America.  He will not lift a finger to prevent it, because his candidate did not win

This narrative has appeared repeatedly in social media, and it is a childish cop-out advanced by political brats.  It is like a child breaking a toy they must share so that no one else may benefit from it.  If we cannot have liberty via Ron Paul, then there shall be no liberty at all.  That is what this looks like from the outside.

And much the way they have ruined Ron Paul’s chances, and may have begun to ruin Rand Paul’s, they may be willing to ruin it for everyone and this particular brand of Ron Paul cult worshiper care.

A second Obama presidency could potentially be the end of any return to constitutional rule.  If Romney loses by 1% and Johnson gets 2%, or low opposition turnout to Obama results in an Obama win, theses cultists have already washed their hands of their complicity in the end of America.  But history will still brand the movement as responsible for the decline that follows.

Not all the liberty folks are like this.  In fact I consider several as close friends and confidants who are not like this at all.  But I have suffered the fools for close to 18 months. I will suffer them no more.

 

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  • C. dog e. doG

    True enough regarding the personality cult complex sheople of many stripes suffer, and therefore make us suffer too. But, to be fair and balanced you should take a closer look at how the Sununu’s of the Flipster campaign have been acting up. For further evidence, just take a look at any comment section, and frequently the journal entries, of republican e-rags reporting on Ron Paul campaign efforts. I think you will find the evidence ample supporting the other side of the story as well.

    Which leaves us really no where on a national level. Who wants a guy like Sununu tuggin’ on puppet strings? And do you really think Romney has the stomach, and the votes, to make any significant steps toward freedom? I think the evidence is overwhelming that these efforts are better left at the State level; we’ve seen long enough what those waving R’s and D’s have accomplished in the swamp along the Potomac, whereas the R’s have done much more under the gilded dome in Concord, mostly good, with a few missteps along the way. But there’s miles to go before we sleep.
    – C. dog, cult of one

    • C.dog,

      I will agree with you, and have advocated, that we do our best to send ‘angels’ to Washington, but we can and must build the bulwarks of liberty from the ground up: Selectmen, sheriffs, state reps, state senators, and yes, a governor with a spine.

      Regarding my friend, ‘The Gnome of The North’, we need to work tirelessly to promote and elect better state party delegates, who will help us remake the Republican Party into the party of the Republic (Jeffersonian, not Soviet). We need to build a base strong enough to resist the puppet masters, but we need to do it the right way. I have a report of the irregularities at the Maine convention, and verbal reports of the threats issued against the state chair and committeewoman for having the temerity to file a report on said irregularities.
      Like Steve says, enough of the Paulbots act like Occupods that it taints the movement. We know there are lots of good people in the Campaign for Liberty, and we agree with 90% of Dr Paul’s platform, but incivility, which I have witnessed first hand, is the problem which will drag the whole thing down, and it will be a great loss for the country.
      I have attempted to debate Paulbots over candidates merits, but, like Democrats, they have their talking points about your candidates failings, and sing lalalalala when you try to explain your candidates advantages. Also like Democrats, you can’t meet them halfway by admitting the good points of Dr Paul, because he has no bad points, and your candidate is awful.
      This year’s attempted packing of state delegations was the icing on the cake of a year which has been marked by loutish behavior all over the country.
      C4L has its sensible and thoughtful Libertarians, some of whom write here, but in a desperate attempt to build a large movement, C4L have vacuumed up all kind of human detritus, and have assembled something which looks like a shiny machine on the outside, but has a bag of tightly packed garbage on the inside (and don’t burst the bag!).

      • C. dog e. doG

        Love your description in the last paragraph of what happens when try to erect big tents. Again, let’s be fair and admit the same happens in more traditional Repub campaigns that scoop up more than their fair share of RINO’s. And, unfortunately, I think those who write here must admit, if not publicly, at least in your darker private moments, that in fact, by deed, Romney is a RINO, or in the most generous of lighting: moderate mush. Records don’t lie.

        Unfortunately, and it seems to becoming a recurrent theme, we are constantly reminded to vote the lesser of two evils – for president, for U.S. Congress, for Govna’, for This, for That. Aren’t we sick of voting for evil? We already know what’s in this bag, it’s the same old Shi’ite we’ve seen for the past few decades. And what has that generated? Géorge Bush, C. Bass, and likely the current crop of R candidates who seek to assume the mighty throne of New Hamsters.

        Fortunately, a glimmer of hope exists for lesser seats at the Hamster table. Perhaps the NH legislature could grow a spine in one of the R govna’ candidates via grafting or gene therapy. Anything’s possible, just not likely. Anyone lately hear inaudible whispers reverberating from ghosts of the past on Real School Choice™? Or is that yet another lost cause now residing on the Isle of Misfit Ideals; the land of forgotten freedom?
        – C. dog

        • granitegrok

          Yo, Dog!

          ” I think those who write here must admit, if not publicly, at least in
          your darker private moments, that in fact, by deed, Romney is a RINO”

          You need to be better bespeckled – WHO here at the ‘Grok has EVER said that Romney is anything other than a RINO? There be no dark corners here in that matter!

          ‘Tis a long road we till, and sometimes to further the furrow ya hafta get rid of the Bigger Boulders first – like that one named “TheCultOfO” by whatever means. And sometimes it takes throwing a few smaller rocks at high speed to shatter the larger before you can sweat getting to the end of the row to where a cool tall one and a comfy chair awaits.

          • C. dog e. doG

            I was just reminding folks what was being said way back during the primaries. It was sounding like folks lost sight of that. And I still think he is just a big plastic phony that will be nothing better than Bush League material. Sometimes, you have to hit bottom before you see the light.
            – C. dog

  • I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment, Steve. I watched the speech by Ron Paul at the rally he held outside the convention. In the end, he advised his supporters to speak softly and convincingly to people (or something to that effect). Ron Paul has many good ideas and appears to be a man of principle. I was encouraged by that statement, and hope that his followers take heed.

    I was following Rick Santorum while he was in NH, and went to his gathering at Jillian’s in Manchester, right before the Primary. I was very dismayed by the “Occupiers” standing outside protesting and assaulting the Santorum family as they went to their car. I saw many faces of the Ron Paul NH supporters, people who claim they support liberty and freedom, but only if you step in line with them. I have lost most of my respect for those people.

  • Kevin Kervick

    Some very good points, Steve. I have tried to be a reasonable and passionate voice for Dr. Paul. The anarchists have nowhere else to go so that came to Paul. I believe he has succeeded in socializing some of the younger ones.

    What I think you may be missing, and others as well is the opportunity to build a grass roots, conservative, independent, populist, consensus that can disrupt the government-corporate-banking -media oligarchy supported by both national parties that is destroying the middle class in this country. Occupy is right to the extent that they are saying the emperor has no clothes. In the past ten years the middle class has begun to evaporate. Income inequality has risen dramatically. Ron Paul has offered a conservative middle class rejuvenation solution. Obama has a Marxist plan, Romney nothing new as far as I can tell. He will feed the oligarchy because they pay him.
    In this latest abuse of power at the RNC, the Paul people were backed by grass roots activists at the convention and beyond. They had rhetorical support from Levin, Limbaugh, Malkin and even Sarah Palin. This is the real Tea Party coalition. It was always an independent conservative/libertarian populist coalition. It is the outsiders vs. the insider political elites in both parties. We need to reinvigorate that coalition.
    I think the best route to restoration, unfortunately is to oppose the Romney candidacy since he has proven to be an elite jackass with close ties to the money changers that could give a damn about you and me. Reignite the Tea Party coalition and get back to the streets and the media instead of inside the Republican election enclaves. Use the fervor from the obvious RNC abuse of power and the fear that will be stimulated by another Obama term to ignite a populist uprising. Take back the country from the oligarchy in Washington.

  • Pingback: RNC 2012 – Summary and Aggregation — GraniteGrok()

  • While I agree that there are players in the Ron Paul sphere who are incorrigible (and, unfortunately, they are usually the loudest), it is unfair to generalize and say that all RP supporters fit into this description. They do not.
    You approach this issue in the very last paragraph – but it is lost under the weight of anathema. I would have provided the caveat a little earlier-on.

    In fact, I would say that there are as many (maybe more) reprobates in the establishment (and Sununu is their spiritual leader), but they are in the position of advantage, while RP supporters are in a position of the minority/outsider, and have been repeatedly kicked to the curb by the establishment; acts which do not endear the RP crowd to simply give up and cheer the winners. In fact, based on their inherent passion, it causes them to scream louder.

    Please remember that this is a tug-of-war, and there is no tug, no war possible, without two teams on the field.

    Romney, as the presumptive leader of the GOP, would have been wise to send gestures of conciliation to this years-old movement. Instead, ignored and insulted, their anger is justified, so they return the anger and insults, continuing their mission, looking for a movement to collaborate with.
    While I don’t usually say this to people, there IS a level of “cognizance” (for the lack of a better word) acquired when you finally realize that you are a RP supporter – I experienced this. You see things in a different way. You break the emotional attachment to Party (both of which have screwed us so badly and deserve equal scathing). You are no longer feel confined by it, and reject the notion of picking the lesser of 2 evils, free to pursue the issues and the person who best fits your requirements. In this state, I discovered that deep down, I really didn’t believe in some of the principles that I had previously espoused simply because the general community did.
    For example, I was always strong on national defense, to the point of being strong on national “offense” – until I acknowledged that there have been some “diplomatic” episodes in our past that have come back to bite us – not to mention the heavy appreciation for the impact our foreign relations have had on our debt. Not abandoning either side of the equation, I changed from favoring costly, sometime-foolhardy intervention, to favoring fiscal sanity.
    This idealism and shedding of practical politics, however, is extremely frustrating, as inevitable party shenanigans and “anyonebutitis” surrounds you.
    it is difficult to be in this position, in a country that, generally, isn’t quite ready to go there or never will.
    I will agree that some RP’ers have not managed this frustration well, and they create a pungent evangelical faction that turns people off. I have personally had this discussion with a number of people, asking them to apply a more logical “pull” approach, rather than pushing. Some listen, some don’t.

    There’s a lot of good in the RP movement, and it should not be thrown out with the bathwater – specifically, that essence of political idealism. If we balance that with the practicality of party, it could make this country better and stronger. I wish Romney had decided to take that first step, but he didn’t.

  • Pingback: Lots of people bash Ron Paul zealotry. Hear from the other side. — GraniteGrok()

  • gadsdengurl

    Like Michael Graham, Michael Steele said what the RNC did to Ron Paul supporters was the ‘height of stupidity’. (to alienate the youth vote)

    Around 4:47 in part 2 with Bill Maher on August 30th

    On the Liberty Crier website, since links won’t post here.

  • Dump the Mack and bring back Jack! Steve why don’t you go read Chris Christie’s keynote speech? You know, the one praising Ron Paul! “IT’s been easy for our leaders to say not us, AND NOT NOW, in taking on the tough issues. And we’ve stood silently by and let them get away with it. ~~~~WE must ALL SHARE in the Sacrifice. Any leader that tells us differently is simply not telling the truth.” This was a speech that roasted the R/R ticket and their plans to address entitlements after their re-election bid in 2016. When did Christie first mention Romney in that speech? You are the fool who does not hear and listen when the new leadership in the Republican Party, defines DEBT, Deficit and Demographics as the future pathway for the Republican Party. This week prominent Republicans are roasting Mitt Romney for not starting a campaign against such a loser as Obama back in April. Now prominent Republicans are saying if you can’t beat this bozo with his miserable record the Republican Party might as well fold the tent. In his column in the last week in August Pat Buchanan called the election for Obama and asked incredulously, “Where will the spending cuts come from?” As early as this week we found Romney being interviewed on a right leaning TV network being asked the same question by a news correspondent. Ron Paul told us on the campaign trail where those cuts would come from ! Instead of him being given a speaking opportunity at the RNC we got Clint Eastwood and his incoherent conversation with a chair. WE could have had a clear choice in this election between two different candidates as we do now for NH Governor. But you and your Tea Party backstabbers told us we needed to nominate a candidate who could beat Obama. So now we have a guy who is pledging to keep entitlements intact for 6-7 more years with out any significant cuts! Now we have a guy condemning Obama for wanting to slow the growth in military spending. Now we have a tax cutter and a spend thrift like the Dumya running against a spendthrift who wants to increase revenues. Now we have a candidate who is as exciting as a bruised cantaloup on the reduced rack. We have a VP nominee with his fingerprints all over Mediscam Rx-D for $65 billion/yr with no taxes or offsets to pay for that then now or forever. A VP pick who was on board all the way with the Dumya squandering trillions in SW Asia on wars of foreign mis-adventure. A guy who requested bail out money for his district and it’s Chrysler plant. A VP who is a part of the problems bequeathed to us by the last 11 years of failed Dumya/Dumbo policies. You got ’em now, & you are gonna’ choke on R/R. We could lose one or two seats in Congress to Dems who also vote for debt ceiling increases and then higher taxes. Even Ovide could be vulnerable. You bounced Jack for not bringing in the cash. Your days are numbered too if we end up losing this 2012 election and the State of NH goes back to being a Blue state. You do not suffer fools? Christie and Rand Paul will not suffer the politically impotent who do not join the new paradigm of the post Romney disaster Republican Party, DEBT, DEFICIT and Demographics. Romney would sell out the Josh Youseff generation as easily as Frank Guinta, rejecting “Shared Sacrifice ” and the”truth”. Your remarks are as offensive as you find mine to be. So there you have it, a nice piece of work irritating the Tea Party empathizers rather than reaching out to unite the NH Republican Party that remains a house divided. What is it that Maggie Hassan was already calling Ovide in her victory speech? And S-Porter with her political sloganeering of, “Frank & his Tea party Friends”! Where are the TV ads blowing up that vicious lie? Since before Mel Thompson was Governor of the great State of NH, “Nothing is more powerful than the truth!” Please enjoy what’s left of your cruise on that Egyptian river!

  • Jane Cormier trounces the RINO Bolster. Bolster a notorious “go long to get along” with one of the worst voting records in Concord as rated by conservative political groups that evaluate elected reps. As a selectman in Alton Bolster has done everything he can to preserve the perks and bloated compensations of his buddies at the top of town gov’t. Bolster a key ally of the $82 to $138K annuitants that make up the first 15 pages of the list of pensions as obtained by the Granite grok by way of the FOIA. A move Bolster roundly criticized. Those folks are depending on those $3MM to $5MM annuities to keep up with the payments on their second homes and $40K boats. The top 20% on the list taking more than 50% of the annual distributions from the gross payouts of the NHRS trust fund, whose funding ratio has dropped in 4 of the last 5 years. The fund losing another 2% of it’s funding in the last fiscal year ended 6/30 despite significant increases in contributions by tax payers and employees. Speaker O’Brien and the committee to study and report out a framework for a switching of new employees into a defined contribution plan, will find themselves well rid of Peter Bolster. Yea ..Cormier’s opponent in Nov will also be “slandering” her with the Tea Party who worked for her primary win!

  • RageFury

    For some odd reason so called Life Long Conservative Republicans are supporting a Liberal ex-MA Governor Romney, this is fascinating to me as well as disturbing. The same Romney whom was pleased that Obamacare was patterned after Romneycare.The same Romney whom I have watched for some several months now be supported by derisive, belittling and insulting zealots who constantly refer to the Dr. and his beliefs in Constitutional Individual Liberty, along with his supporters, as “Dangerous”, “Nazis”, “Racists” and so on. The same zealots that claim the CIA dubbed Term blowback is non-American or not patriotic yet somehow think killing a couple hundred thousand civilians overseas is the right, neccessary and patriotic thing to do. Am I the only one around here that thinks killing civilians in such a high quantity creates more “terrorists” than we can ever hope to eliminate? I dunno about you all, but if some country bombed us and killed a family member of mine accident or no, I would grab the gun and go a hunting…
    Anyways, these same zealots ignore every presented reliable source, while most never produce their own. Oh my god, and the dribble some of them post, sometimes I just have to laugh… Oh to be sure I have witnessed some losers just as you describe, but to paint us all that way while ignoring your own agitators is disingenuous at best…
    So to say that such supporters to the Dr. turned you off to him while staying behind Romney with just as many stomach turning agitators is, well interesting at the very least. Especially when the country’s interests are at stake and only one candidate that stayed in it to the end, that offered a real plan to literately balance the budget and not simply cut imaginary spending over decades. Seems to me that is just as “childish”, “foolish” and “preschooler”. Yet here I am talking to another fellow American, claiming I and others who share my beliefs and desires are the childish preschooler fools. We who said never again to the “lesser of 2 evils”… How do we not have the best interest of the country in our hearts? I see it more as teaching misguided individuals a lesson than as “childish”, “foolish” or “preschooler”. How else do we get out of the “lesser of 2 evils” pattern we seem to be stuck in? Not a perfect solution but it is the only solution we have left to us.

    Of course History has a way of not ending in how we predict, a perfectly valid ending is: we could all be branded as having had the chance to elect a man that represented real change and we blew it… Another valid ending is: you could be branded as having had a chance to elect Romney and the RNC’s actions made sure that any chance of that happening was lost after all the chicanery they pulled against the Dr. at just about every State Convention to include the National Convention…
    YouTube and social media has a funny way of archiving events on vid. Viewers in the future will write that history, one assumes they will do it without spin.

    Some of us followed along and saw first hand all the Rule breaking, bone breaking, hip dislocating and so on that went on. So even when we won, we lost in many cases because the RNC couldn’t handle losing by its own rules. So we supporters have very good reasons to feel irked when all, most of us, ever asked was to to get a fair shake at the Conventions and give the Dr his 15 minutes that was earned when the required pluralities were submitted. Not an unreasonable request to make, follow the rules. We probably could have ignored some of the State Convention BS, but no way can we ignore the blatant teleprompted BS that occurred at the National Convention. Seriously, changing a required 5 state plurality to 8 when the guy turns in 6 just so he won’t be able to speak?
    Seriously, you will be lucky a majority of the supporters ever vote Republican again just because of that alone…

    What Ron Paul tried to do was pretty much, as I understand it, what Reagan did in the Primary for his first election, eg win the delegates and get the Nomination. Only now, in a “knee jerk” reaction to keep the Dr. from speaking in a 15 minute slot, the RNC has made it nearly impossible for any other “non-establishment”, “Grass Roots” candidate to come along and win such as Reagan did. Thus moving the 5 state plurality to 8 may not be the good thing you, perhaps, might have thought it was…

    As to not voting for Romney, you can call it “cry-baby” and “short sighted” if you like. However I did my research on the candidates and I saw Romney supporting Obama policies using his own mouth on many a video. I myself see no point in voting for Romney, whom agrees with most of Obama’s policies like tarp, bailouts (key Tea Party planks), NDAA, the Patriot Act, TSA (Key Liberty issues), Federal Reserve and Bernakie (key Dollar value issue) along with continued preemptive wars using scare tactics.
    Well he agrees with Obama when he is not disagreeing with himself anyways… Kinda like John Kerry and I thought that guy was the flipflop master..

    You see:
    I feel disinclined to support a party that breaks it’s own rules every step of the way.
    I feel disinclined to support a party that uses violence to ensure the winners are the losers.
    I feel disinclined to support a party that calls the sanest man on the hill, I have seen, a “kook”.
    I feel disinclined to support a party that calls the sanest policies, I have seen, “crazy”.
    I feel disinclined to support a party that calls a man that supports Individual Liberty and Restoring the Constitution, a “Nazi”.
    I feel disinclined to support a party that calls a man that supports Individual Liberty and Restoring the Constitution, a “Racist”.
    I feel disinclined to support a party that keeps referring to newsletters that were not penned by the one they accuse.
    I feel disinclined to support a party that thinks the media is biased against Republicans, but think it is ok to “black out” a fellow Republican in favor of one said media is sure will lose.

    And most importantly:
    I feel disinclined to support a party that will continue the deficit spending.
    I feel disinclined to support a party that will continue the preemptive wars of aggresion.

    Are those all “childish” and “preschooler” reasons for voting a certain way, especialy the last two? Perhaps we need more children voting.
    Just saying…

    So no, I will not vote for Romney who would get a potential 8 years of horrible country crushing policy, nor will I vote for Obama who only gets a potential 4 more years of horrible country crushing policy.
    Neither candidate will balance the budget and bring the troops home, or restore the Constitution while both push horrible country crushing policy that won’t help this country recover one bit…

    So given that one votes only to get their guy the win or to make a statement, I am left with only making a statement and so Gary Johnson it is. He won’t win, but if enough of us do it, it just might show the RNC and you all what was lost as a result of the RNC’s own actions and inability to follow their own rules. I have an idea that there is just a tad bit more of us than you think and I would love to see our numbers quantified…
    Perhaps then, next time, when you all are told at the outset that we won’t vote for the lesser of 2 evils and want a fair shake, you might just listen. I just hope there is another 4 years lefts in this beast we call a trainwreck and that it can be fixed in the 4 years following that. Lord knows the next 4 won’t be fixed by either candidate we are stuck with…

    Sorry for the lengthy post, but I felt I need to get this off my chest, especialy when I previously thought you guys were better than this.

    • granitegrok

      “nor will I vote for Obama who only gets a potential 4 more years of horrible country crushing policy” and ” I previously thought you guys were better than this.”

      To the former – to use that old phrase: “You ain’t see nothing yet!” Obama has figured out that with the Senate locked up by Reid, and the House Rs cowering behind the idea that they’d be responsible for a shutdown if they even thought about growing a spine, Obama has become enamored with doing what he wants without Congress – an FDR on steroids by issuing declaration upon decree. He has become addicted to being a dictator – he knows that he can do what ever he wants NOW and when the Courts nullify a Dept decree, the Secretary of the Dept just uses another way to do it all again (e.g., Salazar in stopping drilling in the Gulf, the NLRB’s actions, and the FCC at doing Net Neutrality by other means, just to name three). Recent History is very much predictive of what he will do the next four – only much faster, much bigger and FAR more Liberty destroying than this first term. You think he’s packed on the Debt thus far? His next target, already under attack, is Liberty and Freedom and he is well on the way to destroying that.

      And you, RageFury, among others that will not pull the lever for Obama’s enemy (for that is how HE sees Romney), will earn our everlasting ire. To be sure, you make good points, but your mistake is like many: calling the flawed as bad as the absolute worst. Obama is a FAR different, and worse, enemy of Liberty than Romney. Sure, you can point to RomneyCare and I could not disagree – no level of Govt in the US should even THINK about doing what was done but at least at the State level, you CAN LEAVE and go elsewhere. Obamacare leaves no exit within the country.

      And the same with his other policies. Remember, Obama PROMISED to fundamentally transform America – and that can only happen when our Rights go from being given to us by our Creator and nature’s God (the pillar of American Exceptionalism) to that of Moore’s Leviathan which is the same regressive philosophy held by Obama and other Progressives – Government grants all rights and therefore, can take them away.

      By not voting for Obama’s enemy, Romney, you fail Liberty & Freedom strictly on a mathematical basis purely for ideologically reasons. We all hate continuing to vote for the least worst – but if you are stubborn about it, you have to admit that neither Gary Johnson or Ron Paul could successfully sell themselves or their stances to the general public. They both lost (and Johnson ran away from the Rs to the Libertarian Party where he will not win a thing – but can, from a mathematical basis, assist Obama in winning what would be one of the worst second terms of a Presidency in our history). Writing in Ron Paul out of either loyalty, ideological purity, or pure spite that he did not win (or in your eyes and many others, was cheated out of) will accomplish the same task.

      I make no bones about it – Obama is the worst President since FDR from an L&F perspective. I will vote for Romney as a vote against Obama fully hoping that some reversal may occur of the changes already accomplished but resigned that the only result may a tremendous slowing of the same – only God knows the actual outcome and we can only do what we can with our votes and activism. But I agree with Steve in spirit – those of us who do vote for this reason, to protect Liberty & Freedom as much as we can, will despise what you few will have done, by mathematically throwing away your votes and essentially giving Obama your virtual vote, for the rest of our lives as you will have condemned our children and their descendents to little freedom (or the just a very thin aura of freedom). You can rationalize an argument any way that you want, but the math of the vote cares not a whit about about your reasons to not vote for Romney even as any other name has no change – Obama will win and you will lose. You can sit in your darkened room, self-satisfied with your vote even as the Progressives pound more steel bars around your soul in their never ending goal to govern by external “governors” (laws, regulations) instead of the freedom (and responsibility) of self-governance.

      In that, you will condemn Freedom to sit with you in that cell – powerless and toothless, a memory that will soon dim. Oh, you may well be happy in the delusion of “I struck a blow for freedom” even as freedom will be cast into the ICU where its lifespan, given Obama as its only doctor, will be short indeed. But, I suppose, you will bask in your self-righteousness.

      Knock yourself out (as you can tell, my blood pressure is heading skyward the more I type – but that will be ok because I will, unlike Obama, have someone real to blame and nary a straw man in sight to slay).

      If you have hope for for a Rand Paul Presidency, you will sink it in Nov. The Libertarians, who made great strides in becoming mainstream, will again be ignored, their legacy self-immolated by not doing the absolute most possible by defeating that worst enemy of Liberty and Freedom. Nothing you can say or do in four years will change that – for the fundamental changes that Obama and his fellow Socialists, Communists, and Marxists will have done will never be reversed. You will, by dint of a wasted vote, will throw away Ron Paul’s advances away.

      Why? Because the Ron Paul camp, even as it rails against those that have slighted it, will be blamed for the next two generations (like it or not, if the vote is close). Decisions have consequences and here I normally say “and it will be interesting to see how it will turn out”.

      But not this time.

      • RageFury

        Is long sorry. and after this I will let you have the last word, I don’t wish to be a “huge” nuisance, just a “little” one…

        “To the former – to use that old phrase: “You ain’t see nothing yet!” Obama has figured out that with the Senate locked up by Reid, and the House Rs cowering behind the idea that they’d be responsible for a shutdown if they even thought about growing a spine, Obama has become enamored with doing what he wants without Congress – an FDR on steroids by issuing declaration upon decree. He has become addicted to being a dictator – he knows that he can do what ever he wants NOW and when the Courts nullify a Dept decree, the Secretary of the Dept just uses another way to do it all again (e.g., Salazar in stopping drilling in the Gulf, the NLRB’s actions, and the FCC at doing Net Neutrality by other means, just to name three). Recent History is very much predictive of what he will do the next four – only much faster, much bigger and FAR more Liberty destroying than this first term. You think he’s packed on the Debt thus far? His next target, already under attack, is Liberty and Freedom and he is well on the way to destroying that.”

        What you seem to forget is The Pat Act and the NDAA were passed by both sides of Congress already and both destroy Liberty and both were signed by the President and both are supported by yours truly, Romney. What is left of our Liberty is a hollow shell. The assault on freedom that did not start with Obama, will not end with Obama should Romney win. As I have said before, the guy is on vid supporting Obama policies. This is not conjecture. A simple search reveals all.

        “And you, RageFury, among others that will not pull the lever for Obama’s enemy (for that is how HE sees Romney), will earn our everlasting ire.”

        So? You already earned ours, I will not get on my knees for you and beg forgiveness, nor will I vote for an Obama clone so I won’t have to worry about your ire. Not bloody likely. I did my research and I am fully content to vote making a statement based on it, as voting any other way will not make a craps bit of difference.

        “To be sure, you make good points, but your mistake is like many: calling the flawed as bad as the absolute worst. Obama is a FAR different, and worse, enemy of Liberty than Romney.”

        How do you figure? I have seen Romney supporting Obama policy, what makes you think that man will do anything but the same crap in a different way? Different how? Maybe he will kiss a few less butts in the Middle East but that is it. The same policies we have now will continue under a Romney Administration with very few tweaks if any at all. Possibly he would sign a few less Executive Orders or appoint a few less of these so called Czars, how many did Bush and Obama sign and appoint? Perhaps he would divide that number by two and call it his goal. Keep in mind that would be subject to change as is everything else he says.

        “ Sure, you can point to RomneyCare and I could not disagree – no level of Govt in the US should even THINK about doing what was done but at least at the State level, you CAN LEAVE and go elsewhere. Obamacare leaves no exit within the country.”
        Agreed. Don’t forget Romney was pleased with the fact that Obamacare was based on his own and now backpedals on the backpedal on what exactly he will repeal and keep or repeal completely and replace or whatever. No real surprise there as the man constantly flipflops, the surprise is you trusting him to do what he says. Well take your pick; he has been all over the fence on this topic and many others. Perhaps you would get lucky and score and perhaps not. Either way, it has to pass the Senate and the House and Rs do not own the Senate yet. Even if they own the Senate $10 says the Ds play the Filibuster game and call it even. Though, it’s not like both haven’t passed Liberty crushing legislation before recently, so maybe they will pass an amendment to the repeal. You know, like how they passed Real ID, continuously extend the Pat Act and passed the NDAA? You know the very same Pat Act and NDAA Romney supports?

        “And the same with his other policies. Remember, Obama PROMISED to fundamentally transform America – and that can only happen when our Rights go from being given to us by our Creator and nature’s God (the pillar of American Exceptionalism) to that of Moore’s Leviathan which is the same regressive philosophy held by Obama and other Progressives – Government grants all rights and therefore, can take them away.”

        I remember, Loved that Pillar of Exceptionalism as you call it. I also live in reality, that step has already passed. Search on Patriot Act abuse. They do not need a real reason, warrant or any approval to detain you and take you away from family, friends and legal support. You don’t get a phone call and you don’t get to collect your $200… Since Romney supports the Pat Act and the NDAA, your Romney fits right in with the Progressives. He would do just fine by their standards I am sure.

        “By not voting for Obama’s enemy, Romney, you fail Liberty & Freedom strictly on a mathematical basis purely for ideologically reasons.”
        Incorrect. I support Liberty by not voting for either candidate that supports Liberty crushing policy like the Patriot Act or the NDAA and purely by my own ideological standards, I can do no other thing. If the rest of you like, you can too.

        “We all hate continuing to vote for the least worst”
        Then don’t, else we are stuck with a continuous crapsandwich hand fed to us by the establishment and will continue to Liberty and Freedom.

        “but if you are stubborn about it, you have to admit that neither Gary Johnson or Ron Paul could successfully sell themselves or their stances to the general public.”
        I agree on Gary he didn’t and doesn’t have a shot without better name recognition and certainly not without a R or a D. I disagree on Ron Paul. Why else deny Ron Paul a guaranteed 15 minute time slot in front of a captive audience of millions of Americans? Of course, had the media been fair from the start who knows who would have won the initial beauty contests and Primaries setting the trend. You ever watch that youtube with Jon Stewart on the media ignoring Ron Paul? It was pretty blatant what he pieced together. Media has far to much power to break or make candidates, I point to Huntsman in NH, from nothing to 4th on just a few weeks to perhaps a month of media spam.

        “They both lost (and Johnson ran away from the Rs to the Libertarian Party where he will not win a thing”
        Obviously, Gary winning or even having a chance of winning is not the point of voting for him as I detailed above. He is simply the best candidate left AND I am able to make a statement in voting for him. If only millions more of Americans would simply vote for the best candidate, now that would a dream come true for once.

        “but can, from a mathematical basis, assist Obama in winning what would be one of the worst second terms of a Presidency in our history). Writing in Ron Paul out of either loyalty, ideological purity, or pure spite that he did not win (or in your eyes and many others, was cheated out of) will accomplish the same task.”

        See that is where you are mistaken. My vote and the rest of our votes were not guaranteed to Romney and never were. How you are registered to vote is irrelevant to how you have to vote and NO candidate is guaranteed your vote. NO candidate automatically deserves a vote just because of their Letter. Certainly Romney does not deserve a vote based on his own past vid footage, heck he never should have been allowed to win a a single Primary based on the crap he has said alone. That is why in the General you are not bound to a single Party ticket my friend. As I and most of the others on our side of the coin believe, Romney is not much different from Obama and none of us want another 8 years of this BS. Of course our principles forbid a vote for Obama as well, but voting for Romney who supports Obama policy would be a complete logic fail on our parts.
        You are entitled to your opinion and you may think there is a difference, you may even be right but I have my own mind and my own opinion and I don’t share yours. Nothing I have seen leads me to believe the Romney will change anything of consequence.

        “I make no bones about it – Obama is the worst President since FDR from an L&F perspective.”
        I do not disagree thus far. Talk to me about this in another 4, should Romney win.

        “I will vote for Romney as a vote against Obama fully hoping that some reversal may occur of the changes already accomplished but resigned that the only result may a tremendous slowing of the same”

        That is your choice and please notice, I don’t insult you for it. However do note things have been speeding up these last 12 and there is absolutely no indication that trend will change by electing another Establishment favorite. So myself I will vote for the man whom I know would change things though I know he won’t win. Oh yea, lest I forget, I get to make a statement with the same vote to boot.

        “only God knows the actual outcome and we can only do what we can with our votes and activism.”
        True.

        “But I agree with Steve in spirit – those of us who do vote for this reason, to protect Liberty & Freedom as much as we can, will despise what you few will have done, by mathematically throwing away your votes and essentially giving Obama your virtual vote, for the rest of our lives as you will have condemned our children and their descendents to little freedom (or the just a very thin aura of freedom).”

        That is also your choice and I and others could very well despise you and yours for your choice in Romney. At least with our choice we know said choice does not support Obama policy.

        “You can rationalize an argument any way that you want, but the math of the vote cares not a whit about about your reasons to not vote for Romney even as any other name has no change”

        You can rationalize your math any way you like, but voting for a guy who supports the other guy’s policies won’t change anything. We get more of the same either way. On the other hand if I and mine all vote for Gary, then you all get to see exactly what you lost. Not likely though as herding Libertarians and like minded individuals, is like herding cats. An amusing thought none the less.

        “Obama will win and you will lose.”

        Me? No. Try all of us and a simple fair shake from the beginning might very well have prevented it. Spin that as you like, but 15 minutes was hardly worth the headache you and yours now seem to be having imop.

        “You can sit in your darkened room, self-satisfied with your vote even as the Progressives pound more steel bars around your soul in their never ending goal to govern by external “governors” (laws, regulations) instead of the freedom (and responsibility) of self-governance.”

        I don’t like voting for Gary, he was not my first choice, but he is by far the best candidate left whether he has a real chance or not. He also helps me make a statement with my vote, a first for me. I blindly voted in the past and that is how I voted for Bush, twice, embarrassing though it is. No more, ever. I research myself now and refuse to pull the lever for a flipflopper, let alone the man that supports the worst ever President’s policies.

        “In that, you will condemn Freedom to sit with you in that cell – powerless and toothless, a memory that will soon dim. Oh, you may well be happy in the delusion of “I struck a blow for freedom” even as freedom will be cast into the ICU where its lifespan, given Obama as its only doctor, will be short indeed. But, I suppose, you will bask in your self-righteousness.”

        Now you go on to doing similar things you initially wrote about me an mine for. You make a derisive assertion based on fallacy and conjecture and I am supposed to miss that little tidbit? All this BS when you had the opportunity to vote for a REAL Liberty candidate? Seriously?
        But it’s ok when you do it. I get it now. Here I thought we were having an honest conversation without such things. I even went so far as to reread attempting to ensure I was not being naughty. My bad. Game on is it? No. I suppose not. Not interested, so I will move on.

        “Knock yourself out (as you can tell, my blood pressure is heading skyward the more I type – but that will be ok because I will, unlike Obama, have someone real to blame and nary a straw man in sight to slay).”

        The only one you have to blame is yourself and others like you who for some odd reason think that Romney will save us from Obama’s policies. Well it is not like you weren’t warned nearly 6 months ago and vid evidence was not available.

        “If you have hope for for a Rand Paul Presidency, you will sink it in Nov. The Libertarians, who made great strides in becoming mainstream, will again be ignored, their legacy self-immolated by not doing the absolute most possible by defeating that worst enemy of Liberty and Freedom.
        Nothing you can say or do in four years will change that – for the fundamental changes that Obama and his fellow Socialists, Communists, and Marxists will have done will never be reversed. You will, by dint of a wasted vote, will throw away Ron Paul’s advances away.”
        And now who is ruining the future based on ideology and stubbornness? I thought the country’s best interest was in your heart? Yet now you go and say that last bit. Double standard much?
        How about you go and get Romney elected, thereby electing the NEW worst enemy of Liberty and Freedom. Then you cannot ever count on the vote of me and mine in any future election, fair enough? Well I won’t go that far, sounded neat though. I will let it be, as I truly intend to research the next candidate for 2016 before I lend them my support whoever it may be just as I did for this one. Unlike you and yours and their ire, I think I can vote for the country’s best interest once again in 2016. Heck I will do it even should said candidate be supported by people who now support the man that supports Obama’s policies yet think change will magically occur. We saw how that worked for the “Hopey changey” crowd didn’t we and Romney has a clear vid presence to show just how that will go.
        As to throwing away Ron Paul’s advances, well perhaps you may think that, but after enduring another 4 of Obama or 4-8 of Romney, I think the people’s desire for REAL change just might surprise you. Perhaps that is what is needed to wake the rest up to what was lost just in these past 12 years. I have watched Ron Paul’s movement grow by leaps and bounds since 2006 and has every indication of continuing the trend, especially if the same crap continues as more people and their hurt pocket books open their eyes and start hollering “wtf”. Once that happens and they start researching themselves they eventually notice they are now short a few Liberties they took for granted. I know I did… All it takes is watching a few vids of Ron on the House floor schooling the House. Tons to pick from. You see, we as Americans tend not to give a crap until we are personally affected. Just seems to be our nature to date. Eventually we all will be and then let the fun begin.
        I would take one for the team if it meant my children get a better a future and if that means I will by voting as I will in Nov, then so be it.

        Anywho, how can you rationalize Romney’s support of the Pat Act and the NDAA as not being an enemy of Liberty and Freedom? There, I asked it. I think I will be interested in your answer because my god, by reading your response it must be earth shattering and pristine.

        “Why? Because the Ron Paul camp, even as it rails against those that have slighted it, will be blamed for the next two generations (like it or not, if the vote is close).”
        Or perhaps if you don’t “slight” them again, you just might win the next one with a real candidate that IS NOT the “lesser of 2 evils”. God forbid that happens ehe? The country might fail from the shock of it.

        ‘Decisions have consequences and here I normally say “and it will be interesting to see how it will turn out”.

        But not this time.’

        Yes they do and you and yours already made yours and now we get to see what the consequences of those decisions will be. Pin the blame on me and mine as you like, but you and yours are by no means “innocent” and “blameless” here. Heck, we even warned you all what would happen and you completely went on like nothing was amiss. Perhaps you thought we was “playing”? Truly fascinating your ire is, or will be with that nugget present biting you all in the butt every time you bring this topic up.

        Interesting would not be my choice this time either.

        • granitegrok

          ““By not voting for Obama’s enemy, Romney, you fail Liberty & Freedom
          strictly on a mathematical basis purely for ideologically reasons.”

          Incorrect.
          I support Liberty by not voting for either candidate that supports
          Liberty crushing policy like the Patriot Act or the NDAA and purely by
          my own ideological standards, I can do no other thing. If the rest of
          you like, you can too.”

          And I ask again – how do you rationalize your vote from a mathematical standpoint; you still have not answered that question?

          • RageFury

            I did answer, you just failed to recognize it. My Rationalization is real simple as the basis of your question is based on a fallacy.
            Romney does not support Liberty as evidenced by His support of the Patriot Act AND the NDAA. Therefore voting for Obama’s “enemy”, whom supports Obama’s policies, fails Liberty and Freedom as well.

            If you support Liberty and Freedom, you cannot support those who endorse taking them away and Romney does.

      • So we reward Romney and the RNC for their dishonesty, and support them in changing the party rules so that liberty candidates can never challenge their chosen boys again? Very short-sighted at best.
        You speak as if the Two Big Parties own our votes, and voting for someone else somehow “steals” our votes from them. Wrong, completely wrong. My vote belongs to ME, to use as I wish, on any candidate I prefer. It is MINE to bestow, and any candidate must EARN it. Voting for Johnson is NOT a vote for Obama as you claim. Nor is it a vote for Romney as my leftist friends slao claim. It’s a vote FOR Johnson. My vote does not belong to Romney or Obama, and voting for whom I choose is not a vote for anyone else.

        • granitegrok

          It is NOT “rewarding” – it is defending the remnants of what Freedom we yet still have. You err by concentrating on the Party Politics at ground zero while ignore the threat that hangs above your head as in the sword of Damacles (sp). There is no doubt that your vote belongs to you and to you alone – and you will spend it as you will.

          Remember, Philip, I speak of math and its role in determining the Freedoms at stake; I only speak of beating Obama and denying him any more soul-and-Liberty crushing time in the Oval office. Romney is but a tool to accomplish that – the only tool we have from a mathematical standpoint.

          Standing tall on ideology is fine during the primaries, but both Johnson and Paul were rejected by the voters (like it or lump it). As I said before, voting for Johnson or Paul (or Goofy or Superman, for that matter) is now only a stroking of your own ego from a mathematical standpoint. In the larger picture, it won’t win you anything but may lose your kids and descendents much.

          You believe it is a vote FOR Johnson – but from a mathematical standpoint, what real good will come from it? Trust me, if Obama wins, that vote won’t be a signal to anyone.

          • If Obama wins because liberty voters reject Romney, then it damn well WILL be a signal, the strongest one we could possibly send, for the R party to get it straight and stand for what it claims to stand for.
            And Romney is in no way going to be “a tool to accomplish” the denial of “soul-and-Liberty crushing time in the Oval office”, as he is (and has clearly shown himself to be) no more honest, ethical, liberty-minded, OR respecting of the Constitution than Obama is. He just isn’t any better, and deserves no consideration from anyone who genuinely values liberty, the Constitution, limited government, or ethics.

          • RageFury

            Well said. I mean how much clearer can it be. If you support Liberty you cannot support Romney. Romney supports the Patriot Act and the NDAA. Not much more than that, need be said…

  • Pingback: A reply to a commenter on Steve’s “About All that Ron Paul business…” — GraniteGrok()

  • Well, this is a complete generalization, and a mischaracterization of not just some of us, but of most of us. I am not voting for Mitt Romney because he is not worth, and does not deserve, my vote. That isn’t spite; that’s based on who Romney is, what he stands for (this week), and what he has revealed himself to be.
    After he and the RNC cheated Ron Paul out of what he really did earn, and booted him out of the convention even though Romney had the delegates to win without question, just to try to make it look like everyone was united behind Romney and allow no hint of competition — I will not vote for him. Again, this is not spite; this is a rational reaction to a candidate who shows himself to be dishonest and willing to lie and cheat his way to power.
    Given that reality, I no longer believe that it matters whether Obamney beats Rombama or the other way around. They are both liars and cheats, and lack integrity or any interest in the well-being of this country, of its people, or of the Constitution.
    So I’m voting for Gary Johnson, as the only candidate on the ballot who is worth my vote.

  • Hunter Dan

    Ron Paul is getting a raw deal from the media and his own party.

    But he’s still a crazy, bigoted old coot!

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