Facebook Doodlings – in which I may have called out Lloyd over at TreeHugger

by Skip

Well, I do go over to TH from time to time, and even leave comments.  Well, there was a post by Lloyd (“90 by 50 plan could reduce New York City’s emissions by 90% by 2050“), someone that doesn’t always take kindly to Conservative or Libertarians assaulting what seems to be an Environmental Communitarian mantra.  The Urban Green Council wants to make it mandatory that buildings meet their standard of reducing their carbon footprint by 90% by 2050.  This will absolutely require massive expenditures by private owners – probably enough to bankrupt more than a small percentage.  And knowing how this works, they will use Government to make it happen.

Private Property?

So, I could not help myself – I left a comment for the author, Lloyd:

” there is no need for floor-to-ceiling glass” – Ah yes, THE phrase that marks a Liberal. We so declare that in our eyes, you should not want to “need” it, so we’ll pull a Bloomberg and just regulate it out of existence.

If you are looking for a firm foundation, when you see such a phrase, ask yourself: Since when did someone’s Freedom become limited by someone else’s selfish sense of “it has to be needed first”?

Freedom should always. just. be.  “Need” need not apply when talking about Freedom.  Thus, I was surprised, he actually responded – but the nuance did not surprise:

I really don’t have time for this argument anymore. so you think that the free market should say that we don’t need building codes? that if people want to live with paper walls and can afford to heat them, it is their business? I am amazed you stop for red lights.

Well, I could not help myself:

Let me address the words you put in my mouth without me having to move my jaw.

Point #1 – if *I* build a crappy house to live in, and if falls down around my head, whose fault is that, Lloyd? I have suffered the bad consequence of bad decisions. Freedom MEANS the ability to do nose-plants.

Point #2 – if someone else wishes to purchase my house, let them hire a private contractor to examine the house – I will bear the bad news when buyer walks after hearing the news if did not meet the codes.

Look at the recent effort to make sprinkler systems mandatory – and it turned out to be of low value (if any) in saving additional lives above / beyond the current smoke / co2 / heat alarms. This was simply a politically connected group to rent-seek the govt to increase sales. So much for ALL building codes being worthwhile.

An alternative is akin to the ISO standards in Mfg / service industries – a totally voluntary effort to meet a private set of quality enhancing standards that if done right, increases your quality of your product. And if safety is your only item, think UL (another private well known testing lab).

Point #3 – if people wants spend their money on heating walls, that IS their business.  After all, it IS their private property, right?  Or does environmentalistic communitarianism trump the Right to Private Property?

To paraphrase your opening, I don’t get why the knee-jerk reaction of most environmentalists is to automatically turn to Govt force when you fail in the arena of ideas. I also grow weary of the enforced Communitarianism that the “we’re all in this together, so if you don’t do what I want you to do ‘for the common good’, we will use Govt to fine or jail you”.

A less tolerant bunch would be harder to find with respect to the values this country was founded on – Individual Freedom & Liberty than Enviromentalists who are bound and determined to force their version of Utopia on others – even when it is unwanted or undesired. That drive to do to others is called Tyranny. If someone else’s idea IS to live in a paper walled house, who are you to deny them that? You may believe it is the stupidest thing in the world (and actually, living here in NH, I would agree).

The main difference between you and me, Lloyd, is that I’m perfectly willing to let them do that (even a whole village if they wanted to). I do live by my State’s motto: Live Free or Die. You, and others here that are philosophically aligned with you, would do all you could to keep them from doing so – simply because you think their decision is not good for them or for your religious belief in how people should live.

I suppose that I will be the next to be banned, like C.dog and Crisp E Bacon for upsetting the heterodoxy here that is as closed minded as the back row Baptists in the church I grew up in. Or will you allow that others that do not share your beliefs should be here – if for no other reason than to test you and push you in trying to persuade them that they are wrong?

Folks like Lloyd are only fixated on saving Gaia – and in their quest to obtain their Utopia, like Progressives, are willing to use the force of Government to obtain it – and presumably, use that force to keep it.  Look, I have not problem with the outlook of saving energy – I owned an active solar home for heat and hot water before moving to NH.  I now live in a home that is well set up for passive heating (and is well insulated, given the time it was built).   So, I like the idea – not to make myself feel righteous but saving money is cool.

But I would never, EVER, think that I should force anyone into expending what I have done in the past much less manipulating Government to carry out what I think others should be doing – while Lloyd and others would have no problem with it at all.

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  • coati-boy

    C. Dog and Mr. Bacon are wonderful guys, but they weren’t banned because of dissenting opinions. Treehugger has plenty of “contrarians” that have been around for a long time ( ex: proud NIMBY, Jim Stein, etc.). Some of them make the dog and bacon seem like extras from H. R. Pufnstuf! They got kicked off because of talking about “inappropriate” topics that this site would also ban them for. They are not the martyrs to free speech that you are making them out to be.
    I seriously doubt you will get banned, as much as you would probably love getting martyred.
    I hope you do a follow up to this one-sided diatribe of how you let Lloyd have it and respond to the comments your comment received.

    • C. dog e. doG

      Not true, coati-girl. I can and do say all sorts of things here that would be, and were banned at tree-buggies. Talk about uptight?! You complain the Gronks are way too serious, yet they allow (tolerate) Crispy Creme and I our periodic inane banter. And at times they contribute to the collective mirth of those that visit this blogorama. (See palette and palate cleansers)

      Not that it’s entirely fun and games for me and that gnut from crAZy Land. Once in a while Crispy drops a real gem that makes me stint and go, aye, usually about different strokes for different blokes, or sum such nonsense on fully articulated bio-rythms or sum such. Bottom line, we just like having fun and realize it’s better to laugh as we’re being flushed down the untidy bowl, rather than force everyone to march in lockstep to the hip new religion.

      All that superfluous filling unstuffed on aside, why don’t you try to crack Skip’s primary thesis? Me thinks you doth spend too much time on us red heretics. Or are we really … green?

      By the way, we were’t extras, we had ongoing roles on Puff-n-Stuff.
      – C. dog coasting to the finish line just in time for more Government T.V. kiddie pablum

      • coati-boy

        I got demoted from Man to Girl? Seriously, Mr. familiaris, you know you weren’t banned from Treehugger because of your political/environmental views. While I do think they’re too quick with the axe over there, and we’ll go through very boring, lackluster periods wherein everyone agrees with each other, what do you get away with here that wouldn’t be allowed over there?

        • C. dog e. doG

          I never claimed I was. See above.
          – C. dog leaves trail of well-gnawed upon chicken little bones

          • coati-boy

            You never claimed you were – Skip repeatedly has.
            so you’re initial “not true” was solely directed at my stating that you would have gotten banned from this site for the same thing? To be honest, I don’t know the specifics of why YOU were banned. Mr. Bacon told me his story, and I would be willing to bet that the folks round these here parts wouldn’t be too down with it. I had you guilty by association, so I’m sorry if that was inaccurate.

          • C. dog e. doG

            More truth in blogging, if that’s not an oxymoron. Crispy and I would usually start down some “inappropriate” path, not quite egging each-other on, but not quite putting on the brakes, either. And to be crystal clear, I’m not talking politics here, rather male-normative locker-room banter kinda stuff, but dressed up in a courtly demeanor as in my second paragraph, Part 1, 1st amendment.

            That said, I do rescue Crispy from time to time, as does Skip (primary editor here). That said, I do cross the line from time to time, but I’m not banned, and Skip provides the rulebook challenge, sometimes in the detail that verbose NFL ref (Edward G. Hochuli) explains things during a playoff game. Heck, Skip on occasion even “edits” material from fellow bloggers. (Don’t recall that happening to man-child Bri-guy for his F-bombs, do you?) For further evidence, see contributions by The Flautist from Hillsburro at Granitegrok (not banned, but periodically blanked).

            Geesh, all this talk about rules is starting to make me chafe.
            – C. dog tangled in leashes

          • granitegrok

            C. Dog is right – I really don’t want to ban anyone from the ‘Grok (I think I have only twice in 7 years – what? 7 seven years – has it been that long that the ‘Grok’s been open??). I like the commenting and I only have to apply some “admonishment” from time to time. You know, like how Govt should do with basic rules instead of creating rules to engineer us all to be more social or something….

            Danny the Flutist is a different sorta case….but I haven’t banned him either……yet.

            These are times that try mens’ soul and he really does try to be …..trying.

            Primary editor? I don’t think that I have EVER signatured that I am the primary editor….just the owner doing all the scut work ’round here like any small biz owner does….

            Wish I DID have some biz, though…hit the DONATE tipjar from time to time, folks!

    • granitegrok

      Trust me – in the name of that Pipe Smoking General – “I SHALL RETURN!”

      Gotta finish the work day first…

      • coati-boy

        It’s been two works days so far…

      • coati-boy

        Now it’s been 3 work days….I’m starting to think that pipe’s full of hot air…

      • coati-boy

        4 work days have gone by….you had time to comment on a different story on Treehugger, but strangely, not the one you told me to trust you on. Interesting.

        • granitegrok

          Keep counting, coati-boy…

          • coati-boy

            Care to respond, or does your word mean nothing?

        • C. dog e. doG

          coati-gal –
          I have yet to see you provide a rejoinder to the substance of Skips comment. All this time spent on divining on what passes for the machinations of the minds at Tree Huggies is kinda pointless. Though rest assured, there were two sets of rules: one for FOTH, and one for those who are less than friendly. I would often test the Moderator Mush over there by playing games of tit-4-tat (right there this post would be purged at Tree Huggie for being sexually suggestive). Bet you can’t guess which post was deleted, and which wasn’t?

          Any who, what wrong with letting people live in glass houses, so long as they can afford the Government rent?
          – C. dog unearthing buried sticks

          • coati-boy

            That’s what all this is about, Sirius – I did provide a rejoinder to skips comment on treehugger, to which he said “Trust me” and he’d return to it, which he hasn’t. I thought that old book with the sandal- wearing hippy in it doing magic tricks that Skip seems so fond of says some things about the worth of a man and his word, but then again, I’m not the aficionado on that stuff that Mr. Bacon is…

          • C. dog e. doG

            Well, not to put words in Skip’s mouth, but we are powerful busy up here trying to keep the Hamsters at bay with all their whining for more pork, less guns. There’s words to wage, but more importantly, deeds to do. If you’re interested, rallies today at New Hamster’s very own Gilden Dome, a/k/a The Sausage Factory. You’re invited, as all out-of-staters are, to participate both in our politically bent rallies … and our voting. Just check in at your favorite Democratic safe house!
            – C. dog puttin’ on his rally cap … just so

          • coati-boy

            I just find it disingenuous to post a one-sided diatribe on your home base about how you oh-so-cleverly let a “Leftie” have it with the strength of your wit, but refuse to respond to what were some very articulate responses ( and I’m not even talking about mine – Ruben Anderson’s response was much more eloquent). I don’t have a lot of respect for the opinion of folks who can never cede a point or even admit that the “other” side may not be made up of unthinking drones, or comment and run…

          • C. dog e. doG

            Hmmm, you must have low opinion of the Wizard(s) of Tree Huggies’s comment bored. Just for the record, since my banning there (mostly a blessing as it freed up time to polish my guns and improve upon my roadkill fricassee recipé), I’m a big fan – dare I go forth boldly and assert #1 fan? – of adding substantially to shelter envelopes. And like Skip, I don’t think people should be forced to do so, but rather guided by the obvious individual, greedy economics interests to do so. Ain’t selfish interests a wunderful thang?
            – C. dog fully engaged to near-zero of his own volition to divorce from Nanny’s and Big Co.’s respective BFA’s

          • coati-boy

            I…..followed about 10% of that! I have once again been left adrift in the wake of your meanderings. So, I’ll just roll the dice and say…..yes?

          • C. dog e. doG

            Methinks you play coy, or perhaps ‘possum. Or perhaps you are truly naive about the extent to which the nattering Nanny bobbleheads annoyingly infiltrate every facet of one’s being here in the Northeast. I kid you not, in some districts (MA-MA Land Boston suburbs and VerteMonte) they actually dictate the color of paint on the exterior of buildings, and would certainly have a decisive say in how, and whether, you could add insulation to the exterior of the building for which you are the steward (no one actually owns anything here). In VerteMont, they require everything to look like fake barns now, excusé moi, faux-barns.
            – C. dog leaving more crumbs for coati to follow

  • C. dog e. doG

    Skip –
    I smiled throughout your energized rebuttal of Nannyism – The Green Version. It’s good to have one of those big, green backboards to pound the tennis ball against from time to time. Reminded me of the days Crispy and I would enter the hallowed Church of Gorism clanging discordant notes and mocking chicken littles all chanting in their pews to the Golly Green Giant.

    I kept pointing out to the greenie weenies the real green is in the savings of doing sensible things – no need for hi-tech green gadgets, just good old elbow grease, plenty of caulk, and insulation. (see what I did there, coati-gal? Adult themed, kid friendly) But no, they need Nanny to tell them what to do, how to do it, and make everyone else do it that way too. What a bunch of sniveling rumpswabs of the highest disorder!

    That said, sometimes there was (is?) good information, and excellent comments from both sides (filling in for Crispy here with the silver lining). When the Shi’ites hit the fan, some of this technology will become very valuable because substantial independence will be at a premium, especially for those of us without the financial wherewithal to buy a timeshare at Galt’s Gulch.
    – C. dog coasting to the finish line, stick in neutral, engine turned off

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