You Can’t Hunt With That!

by Rick Olson

 

The Remington R-15…Chambered in “30 RAR(introduced in 2009)” Designed for…yes…well…”Hunting….”

 

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  • IWKAGGP

    Yes, you can hunt with AR-style rifles. Most hunters know this, most non-hunters are clueless. I don’t necessarily think this is a good argument though. Not a single hunter I know owns or uses one of these. And I consider this recent trend in remaking the AR platform into a hunting rifle to be disturbing and an example of the worst of capitalism. Hunters for the most part are practical folk. There are so many other calibers and actions that do the job so well why would anyone want a tricked out camo AR in some new-fangled caliber? Most of the hunters I’ve talked to think it’s overkill. They can see it for what it is – a gun maker’s ploy to sell more guns to people who already have enough. Or to entice people who wouldn’t necessarily be interested in hunting to get into it thinking they can “play Rambo” in the deer woods. We don’t need more of THOSE kind of people in the woods. Hunting should be as it always has been, about 1) providing food for your family 2) being a steward of the land 3) time spent with family and friends 4) the enjoyment of being out in nature’s unspoiled beauty 5) fulfilling one’s place in the circle of life 6) accepting the challenge of fair chase pursuit of a more than worthy adversary . . . you know . . .THOSE sorts of things. It’s NOT about pretending you’re in the jungles of ‘Nam, proving your manhood(especially when you consider the only growing demographic in hunting is female hunters), looking “cool’ or “exercising your 2nd amendment freedoms.” If these last four or anything resembling them are why you hunt then you’re in it for the wrong reasons. Go ahead with the name-calling Groksters, but my 86 year old father who grew up on a farm in depression-era Alabama, who’s family lived off the land and utilized every part of every animal they raised or hunted, every crop they grew, every resource they found in the woods and waters around their farm is the person who instilled in me the real meaning of our hunting tradition and heritage. Ain’t no silly conspicuous consumption-promoting, flag-waving, macho gun industry marketing ploy is gonna fool me.

    • http://www.GraniteGrok.com/ Rick Olson

      wow….and you arrived at all that from this post? That is quite a rant, I must confess….I struggled through it….nearly glossed over at line 5.

      But what is clear is that it elicited an emotional visceral ablution….job well done! Now all you fellow Groskters come pat me on the back [insert, High Five here]

      • granitegrok

        Back slap, back slap, back slap….attaboy

      • Bubbles LaTour

        Oh I don’t know, Rick, all that tough talk from Mr. IWAHHH is VERY attractive…except I doubt he’d like the pink supressor I got from Santa for my M-4.

      • IWKAGGP

        Gee Rick, thanks for admitting that the only reason you posted this was to get a rise out of yours truly. I’m at once flattered, and a bit creeped out, to know that you guys spend so much time thinking about me.

        Allen’s mention of the feral hog problem is an anomaly. Yes, I agree we must do whatever we can to rid our country of these beasts(and thanks again to white Europeans for causing the scourge.) But I wouldn’t call that “hunting” as much as it is “extermination.”

        I’ve spoken to you at length about our hunting and fishing traditions, Rick. I know that you care deeply about them. I also know that you understand that there are things that could be considered blemishes on the otherwise pristine record of hunters as law-abiding, reasonable, caring, conservationists. That’s why I’m surprised that you would write this post at all. Heck even Allen admitted that it’s not really a good argument for the 2nd amendment, because the 2nd amendment isn’t about hunting.

        Perhaps you should spend a little less time thinking up ways to get my goat and a little more time trying to save your rifle range from your flatlander anti-gun zealot neighbors.

        • http://www.GraniteGrok.com/ Rick Olson

          Allen’s mention of the feral hog problem is an “anomaly?” perhaps you like higher food prices attributable to the millions of dollars feral hogs do to corn crops? Hardly an anomaly, Dan this is a huge problem and is now visited upon us here in the Granite State in Sullivan County.

          Your whole reasoning is corrupt because its visceral. I am not sure what post I wrote that you refer to. One thing for sure its emotional….and there is medication and counseling for that.

          I reject your premises above. Clearly, you missed the point Allen was making. And I understand why you missed the point. Because as soon as an argument is made in favor of AR platforms, you and your ilk make an argument in favor of banning them. The reason is always, “You cant hunt with that,” when nobody made that argument in the first place. Allen merely points out that AR platform rifles are effective for Hog Hunting (I used one in Abbeville GA last year) but the larger context of the second amendment is NOT hunting…But that premise always counters that we are all nuts for thinking it.

          Yupic and Inuit Eskimos use full auto M-16′s to defend themselves against Polar Bear attacks. Guess they cant hunt with that either.

          Finally, you don’t really know as much as you think you do. ALL hunting firearms evolved from Military Arms. ALL OF THEM. no exceptions. A Savage Model 99 chambering a 45-70 Gov’t round for hunting large game, had its birth in the Springfield 1873 Trap Door Rifle.

          • IWKAGGP

            I never said I wanted to ban AR platform rifles, Rick. You’re putting words in my mouth. I merely suggested that the repackaging of AR-platform rifles in camo and big-game friendly calibers is a disturbing trend in the gun industry. And yes, I’m quite aware that all hunting arms were spawned from military arms. But you must also agree that the capabilities, range, rate of fire, caliber, and other qualities needed in a hunting arm is vastly different from what are needed in today’s military arms – given the way the technology of warfare has advanced. I mean, the SCUD missile is a military arm but we would both agree that marketing SCUD missiles for hunting would be ludicrous. Your claim that “any and all weapons ever devised for military use should also be marketed for hunting” is also ludicrous. I do not want to ban anything Rick. Don’t paint me with that broad brush.

          • allen

            “But you must also agree that the capabilities, range, rate of fire,
            caliber, and other qualities needed in a hunting arm is vastly different
            from what are needed in today’s military arms”

            really. so the re-issue of M14′s was an “anomaly” too? how about the M40 series, itself a modified Remington hunting rifle?

            also, the straw man argument “confusing” artillery (SCUDs, nukes, ect) with arms is not working, and you should give it up. we know exactly what we are talking about here, and so do you. so just stop, ok?

          • IWKAGGP

            Yes I do know what I’m talking about. You guys have been a 24/7 mouthpiece for the more guns at all costs crowd since Sandy Hook. You’re not capable of gauging your rabid support of firearms against anything else, even against the future of the tradition of hunting that some of you “claim” to care about. The face of hunting is changing. It’s no longer(or more accurately it’s “once again not just”) about flag-waving, beer-swillin’, redneck, faux-patriot nimrods with tv shows and big endorsement deals shooting penned in animals that they pay by the inch of antler to “harvest.” It’s once again about getting back to nature, providing for one’s family, being a steward of the land . . . all those boring things that it’s so tough to articulate in a half-hour hunting show. There are gay hunters, muslim hunters, liberal hunters, female hunters, old hunters, young hunters, “adult-onset” hunters . . . these are the segments of the hunting population that are actually GROWING. I’ve met more folks in the past year that represent the values that my father taught me about concerning hunting. Values that I thought had been lost in the corporatization of the sport. I now know that hunting is enjoying a new Renaissance that some folks just can’t get behind. They can’t get behind it because the folks who are part of the new hunting Renaissance are challenging their belief system simply by being hunters. Hunting can no longer be pigeon-holed into a “sport” of rural, older, white males. And the fact is that most sportsmen and women DO NOT agree 100% with the NRA’s top brass. These two things must really piss some of you guys off. And yet still supporting an inanimate object(firearms) is more important than supporting the tradition that you (supposedly) love.

          • allen

            ah yes..you can’t defend the “arms” vs “artillery” straw man arguments you have made, so let’s just make a jump to the left and talk about something else!

            1)the 2nd amendment isn’t about hunting and never has been. PERIOD. you know it, we know it, so let’s stop the bullshit, shall we?

            2)if you think that throwing the EBR’s (evil black rifles) to the crocodiles will save your precious sport of hunting, all this does is get them to eat you last . the gun control types have made it perfectly clear that they’re coming for “sniper rifles” next. and they’ll define “sniper rifle” as anything more accurate than a Brown Bess firing loose ball. (I’ll pause while you google that one….)

            where will your sport of hunting be then? what will be left? because I can see the animal rights nutters coming after hunters for not making “clean kills” because their weapons aren’t accurate enough..but if you do anything to MAKE them accurate the “sniper rifle” police will come and get you for making an evil rifle that “only the military needs”. next will be crossbows and compound bows, for being “too powerful and nearly silent”, then the regular bows (for the same reasons).

            so, you’ll be left with hand-thrown spears..which may or may not be regulated under the same laws that seem to think bayonets are the source of all evil..and if they possibly overlook it…the Atlatl. (I’ll pause again while you google that one..)

            crocodiles don’t take “just one bite”. they always come back for more. and they bring friends. how much freedom are you willing to sacrifice, before you say NO. ENOUGH. and do you really think they will stop if they have no fear of you?

            “A government is like fire, a handy servant, but a dangerous master.” george washington

            do you control the fire..or does the fire control you?

          • IWKAGGP

            Jesus you are one paranoid SOB. And not very good at reading I gather. 1) I NEVER SAID I WANTED TO BAN ANYTHING! 2) i KNOW THAT 2ND AMENDMENT ISN’T ABOUT HUNTING – I WAS THE FIRST PERSON ON THIS THREAD TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT! 3) I’M AN AVID MILITARY HISTORY BUFF AND HAVE FRIENDS AND FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ARE REENACTORS – I KNOW WHAT THE BROWN BESS AND LOOSE BALL ARE! Are you actually one of these people who thinks that “new age” hunters like author Tovar Cerulli are merely spies of the anti-hunting left sent to infiltrate the ranks of hunters and destroy it from within? Not everything is a conspiracy Allen. BTW, is your last name “West?”

          • allen

            ah..so you’re an “aristocrat hunter”..”anyone who does anything different than how I was raised hunting, is WRONG and will ruin the sport!”

            which is exactly what they said about blackpowder seasons. and archery seasons. and inside those seasons the the flintlocks vs “traditionalist” caplock blackpowder vs the “new” blackpowder, and the “traditional” bow vs compound bow vs crossbow ect.

            I have noted in several archery magazines how the arguments they use against crossbows, are identical to the arguments used against bows by “traditional” firearm hunters way back when they started the archery seasons..and they weren’t valid then, or now.

            now it’s “traditional” rifles vs newer rifles. which isn’t a new fight really..I’m sure at one point someone has voiced the same things against the lever action .30-30′s back in 1895.

            each time “the sport will be ruined! these new people don’t respect tradition!!! oh noes!!!!!!!!!”

            each time, the sport is still here, and bringing in new people has, in each case, been a GOOD THING.

            so smile, welcome the people with the funny-looking rifles into the fold, and teach them how to hunt correctly, ok?

            and stop bringing up ARTILLERY when we’re talking about ARMS. it’s a completely false argument, and we both know it.

            and no, it’s not “west”. and you’re not paranoid if they really are out to get you. have you read half of the stuff the anti-gunners SAY about gun owners and collectors, and what they want to do to us?

            look up the violent fantasies of Donald Kaul. and know that he isn’t alone, and your “sporting rifles” are on his list of items he will hill you over.

          • allen

            oh and as a side note my personal hunting arm when I get to the “rifle” areas is an 1866 trapdoor springfeild in .50-70 govenment. it has been in my family since my great-great-great grandfather “borrowed” it, and 2 others, from the massachusetts militia armories in salem,MA when he retired.

            but, I don’t begrudge anyone using more advanced arms. they don’t “ruin the sport”.

          • IWKAGGP

            So what does ruin the sport Allen?

          • http://www.GraniteGrok.com/ Rick Olson

            Well, I guess people can now get those rocket launcher blowee-upee thingys in the Watts District of East LA or South Central now. I am going to stick with my Archery Equipment and my 50 cal muzzleloader…Down in Abeville,GA an AR-15 chambered in 458 Socom makes quick work of feral hogs….He took down eight at a feeder all in one fell swoop. U.S. Fish & Wildlife is still at a loss on how to control the hogs…they breed so fast.

          • IWKAGGP

            People like Kaul(and Cass “I want animals to have legal representation in court” Sunstein) are whackjobs on the radical fringe. They do not represent the mainstream. Their ideas will never become mainstream. As for your paranoia about the “gun-grabbers” I’ll use my own life experience to refute it. Before Obama was elected some of my hunting friends were screaming about how “if Obama’s elected he’ll take your guns away!” Well, fast forward four years and I still have my Ruger M77, my Remington 870, My T/C Omega – and my compound bow! Guess they were WRONG about Obama wanting to take my guns. Of course, now they say, W, W, we, well . . . t, th, that was b-b-b-BEFORE he got RE-ELECTED! Last term he had to worry about getting re-elected so he couldn’t do everything he wanted. NOW he DOESN’T have to worry about getting re-elected, so NOW he’s REALLY gonna t-t-t-take our guns! LOL! Of course, THEN there are some who say that perhaps this ain’t Obama’s last term ‘cuz by the time 2016 rolls around he will have changed the rules about term limits and will have made himself dictator. More PARANOIA I say! And you’re WAY over-simplifying my last post. You wrote that I’m an “”aristocrat hunter” who believes “anyone who does anything different than how I was raised hunting, is WRONG and will ruin the sport!” Nothing could be further from the truth. But with that statement you effectively are saying that “we must accept ANY and ALL aspects and types of hunting – regardless of how safe, lawful or fair-chase they are.” That is the problem with the world today. Too many people see only black and white. You apparently believe that regarding hunting we must either have “no holds barred, every man for himself killin’ of any and all creatures by anyone with any weapon whatsoever anytime anywhere” . . . OR . . . NO MORE HUNTING – EVER! That is such a juvenile mindset that I cannot fathom it. That sort of either-or scenario has nothing to do with reality. It’s simply crazy talk. I’m sorry Mr. West but I refuse to be pigeon-holed into one of your neat little boxes.

          • allen

            hunting with a firearm is about ballistics, not the device that throws the bullet. an SKS and an AK is, ballistically, IDENTICAL to the .30-30. but because they “look funny” they’re going to “ruin the sport”.

            bad hunters ruin the sport, not the instruments they use. you can’t blame the tool for the user. and that’s the point here. you think if someone has an AR-based rifle, firing an appropriate hunting cartridge for the game at hand, they’re somehow “bad hunters”.

            whatever. believe what you want. I’ll keep hunting with what I use, you use what you use, and other people will use what they use. if they are using within the proper seasons, and within the laws, more power to ‘em. be happy other people are enjoying the same sport you are.

            and I said my last name was not west, I was never an officer. I was an enlistedman. I would certainly VOTE for Colonel West, but I am not him.

          • http://www.GraniteGrok.com/ Rick Olson

            Thanks for your service, Allen..Like you I spent many years as an enlisted man before I made the leap. USMC, to be precise.

          • allen

            well, I wouldn’t say “many” years. I did my 4 in the USN and had enough. too many chiefs more interested in protecting their backsides than being leaders. I understand this sort of thing isn’t tolerated in the Marines, but my dad was a Seabee and he would have had my head on a plate shortly after bootcamp if I went that route.

          • IWKAGGP

            I understand that it’s the “hunter” and not the “weapon’ Allen. I’m not trying to say that the AR-platform hunting rifles are inherently “bad” – they’re inanimate objects and therefore, there is no “good” or “bad” about them. But I feel that those particular inanimate objects will draw in more “bad hunters” than “good hunters.’ Case in point: An acquaintance of mine(I won’t call him a “hunting buddy” ’cause he’s not.) We met on opening evening of the 2010 NH archery season when he came to within 50 yards of my treestand, proceeded to pour a whole container of “C’meer deer” on the ground and then shinny his climber up a tree. I had to yell at him for him to notice me, at which point we both climbed down and introduced ourselves. He apologized all over the place and THEN asked ME, “hey, is it ok to bait here? I don’t do it to “draw ‘em in” – just to get “em to stand still for a good shot.” Over the course of the next year I found out he was a “retired” federal cop who left on a “disability” and because of that “disability” was in the process of switching over from a bow to a crossbow. He appeared healthy as a horse to me and was built like a pro wrestler – certainly not a physique that makes one unable to bring a compound bow to full draw. I tried to help him, offering to take him hunting in one of my spots but he begged off because he “doesn’t like to walk that far to get into a hunting spot.” HE owns an AR-style hunting rifle.

            Now I’m sure there’s plenty of folks out there who hunt with ARs who aren’t incompetent, lazy, law breakers. But I would bet that a higher percentage of “bad” hunters than “good hunters” hunt with ARs.

          • allen

            now, if you had your way, those same “bad” hunters would be forced to use “traditional” tools. which they would go out and purchase.

            how would that change them into “good” hunters? magic? the Spirit of The Old Hunter would come to them and show them the error of their ways, like the Spirit of Christmas Past? I’m afraid you missed that detail.

            this is like the “underpants gnomes” on south park. “1. steal underpants 2……………. 3.profit!” only you’re at “1.make people use traditional hunting tools. 2………………. 3.good hunter!”

            like I have said, hunting isn’t constitutional. so make whatever requirements you want. make hunters re-take hunter education every so many years. make disabled hunters who want to use crossbows go to a medical exam at F&G headquarters instead of their own doctors. do whatever you like.

            understand though if you make it harder to hunt, you will have less people hunting. and less younger people will get into the sport. and that’s the surest way to kill off the sport you love.

          • IWKAGGP

            FOR THE LAST TIME – I’M NOT SAYING WE SHOULD BAN ANYTHING!!!! And it’s “fewer people hunting” . . . and “fewer younger people will get into the sport” . . . not LESS.

          • allen

            did I say “ban”? nope. there was no “ban” in there. “forced”, yes. but that is not a ban. there are plenty of firearms that, by regulation, are not allowed to be used for hunting. but they aren’t “banned”. I can still own them. I have a thompson carbine in .45, but I don’t think anyone makes a 5 round magazine for it, so I can’t use it hunting. by regulation. it is still perfectly legal for me to own.

            let’s see if I understand here…in your opinion AR rifles “attract” bad hunters. and you don’t like them. and that’s about it. you think you’re using logic to poke holes in our arguments, but all you really end up doing is showing that either you have no concept of scale (scud missiles, nuclear weapons, ect) or you think we’re so dense that you have to go over the top or we won’t “get it”.

            notice how no one is yelling but you? we know you’re not stupid. I’m sure youre a very smart guy. when you assume someone who has a different opinion than you must be stupid…you lose. because usually, your opponents are just as smart as you are..and if they’re not, even the dumb ones get lucky.

          • IWKAGGP

            Look, all I’m saying is that I find the current trend in marketing “assault-style” weapons for hunting disturbing. Not that because I find it disturbing I want to take legislative action to stop it. That’s the same way I feel about “trophy hunting.” In my opinion that’s hunting’s version of farmers having a “biggest pumpkin” or some other “biggest vegetable” contest. It’s an odd tangent. Ultimately it is my hope that all of us as hunters can come together to protect out sport from the ones who truly want to end it. That’s why I was at the state house several years ago when the last anti-trapping/hunting/fishing bills were proposed. And while I’ll gladly take one of my two remaining personal days later this winter if more such silly legislation makes its way to the floor of the NH House.

          • allen

            could it possibly be that the AR or military style rifles are being used because..

            1)ergonomics. the safety is where it should be, and there are no extra buttons or levers required to make it fire.

            2)light weight. I’ve priced out some “light” rifles, and usually for every few ounces you shave off, you add about $200 to the cost. I don’t have vast sums of cash to throw around, and I also don’t like humping a boatanchor miles and miles into the woods.

            3)multi-use. by changing out an upper on an AR, I can fire nearly every caliber from .22LR to .50BMG. there is even a crossbow upper. I have not seen a shotgun upper yet, but I’m sure someone is working on it. like I said, I don’t have vast sums of cash to throw around. new uppers are far cheaper than new rifles, and I can get them delivered to my front door. I don’t have to have a rack full of guns to go from plinking and squirrels to moose, buffalo, elk, or even the tank of the animal world, the cape buffalo. (yes, there are ranches in texas that have them). also, I don’t have to re-train every time I change calibers. all of the controls are in the same place, each time. which brings me to……

            4)familiarity. anyone who has been in the military in the last 50 years or so has probably handled Eugene Stoners Rifle. they know how it works. they know where all the controls are. they know how to take it apart and put it back together and clean it. they are confident that it will function when they want it to, an important feature against feral hogs, cape buffalo, and other dangerous game.

            for those 4 reasons, it is natural to market AR -type rifles to hunters. the same way it was natural to market retired civil war muskets to settlers going west, or the Henry rifle, or the Sharps rifle. and all the later incarnations of military rifles.

          • IWKAGGP

            All that sounds convenient. ARs aren’t the only type of weapon with interchangeable barrels. I believe T/C makes a gun with multiple barrel options – although it may be more expensive than some of these ARs. And I understand about familiarity with a weapon being a good thing. I’ve often thought about switching to a Remington 760/7600 for my deer gun because I love shotting my 870 so much and it makes sense to have the action and safety placement I’m used to. But everytime I think about it I think of how much I LOVE my Ruger M77, how accurate it is, and how it might be difficult to get a 760/7600 chambered for .280 which is what my M77 is chambered for.

            Oh well, at any rate, chatting about something we both have an interest in(guns in general) gives me more of a “warm, fuzzy feeling” than arguing over things we disagree on. I’m done with this thread. Good day to you Sir and thanks for your service.

          • http://www.GraniteGrok.com/ Rick Olson

            “I mean, the SCUD missile is a military arm but we would both agree that marketing SCUD missiles for hunting would be ludicrous. Your claim that “any and all weapons ever devised for military use should also be marketed for.” After seeing this, I must quit while I am ahead…One cannot reason with children, you need to grow up, Dan.

          • IWKAGGP

            In Grokspeak that means, “I must quit because you have a valid point that I have no comeback for.”

          • http://www.GraniteGrok.com/ Rick Olson

            Let me backtrack a bit here…And break it down for you Dan…The post consists of two pictures….a firearm…and cartridges…the caption reads,

            “The Remington R-15…Chambered in “30 RAR(introduced in 2009)” Designed for…yes…well…”Hunting….”

            Anything else brought to the discussion such as scud missiles or any other stupid idiotic inane thing is on you…not me….you responded emotionally and you keep spiraling downward like a child whose pudding was snatched.

            You now have a free pass to respond how you want….I am not going to respond….because, 1) I write the stuff and I don’t have to….those folks I respond to, are generally spirited, but respectful. You often are not. 2) I do not suffer children…I have grandkids for that. ….enjoy.

      • Scott Morales

        I’ll high five it!

    • Tim Condon

      I don’t hunt. I’ve little interest in it. But what I really DO like is pretending I’m in the jungles of Vietnam, proving my manhood, looking cool, and most of all exercising my 2nd Amendment freedoms. I just wish people were licensed and issued permits to go into the woods…to make sure they’re going out for the right reasons!

  • allen

    I know people that hunt with SKS’s, AK-types, M1A’s, and I’ve even seen one guy with a Sharps rifle replica like “quigley down under”. military pattern rifles have always made good hunting rifles.

    the AR platform (in it’s original AR-10 configuration) has been very popular down south dealing with feral hogs. having a large magazine capacity allows you to exterminate more of the herd as they try to run from the bait station. I’ve seen AR-10 type carbines with betamag drums in use hunting hogs from helicopters in texas.

    but, this proves nothing. the 2nd amendment isn’t about hunting animals, and never has been. it remains our last, final, NO to tyrants and slavers.

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