GraniteGrok

You write that "Civil Unions gives preferential treatment to approx. 4% of NH’s population therefore discriminating against a much larger two-people living together, other than married couples, population. So, why DO you have to be a homosexual to join in a civil union?" The Civil Unions Law does not preclude another law to take care of this problem. Go for it Judy!

You also write: "NH is 6th in income, yet 49th in services to citizens, last in school funding, one in ten go to bed hungry, our roads and bridges are falling apart, yet these democrats focused on civil unions..." But the Republicans were NEVER focused on these issues, the Democrats are still working on them.

I'd rather have the tortoise than the hare as far as civil unions, robbing parents of their rights, etc.....the dems could have probably solved all of these problems instead of just "working on them" by now if they'd kept the appropriate focus instead of spending their time and passing a bunch of radical legislation. But, don't worry, I think the voters will remember how the dems have conducted themselves and they won't be in office much longer. :)

Judy-I don't think most of the citizens of this state care. Just keep on combining all these issues into one easy mantra. It didn't work in last week's State Rep race in Manchester, did it?

"Saying a civil union is the same as marriage does not make it so. Civil unions are a newly invented category, neither universally recognized nor understood. Connecticut’s claim that the two terms are alike merely underscores the bottom-line question: Why relegate a minority group to a separate category?" - New York Times editorial, June 7, 2007 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/opinion/7thu3.html

Putney does have a point about the Republican's ability to govern however I think we can conclude that they were too busy keeping the Dems liberal agenda at bay. I hope the Republicans will remember this liberal asault and rule as carelessly and ruthlessly as the Dems are doing right now. Why are the Republicans not screamming to the media that the Dems, along with the Governor, are anti families? They are anti family for repealing the parent notification law. I would think any parent worth their salt would agree that a child needs their parents ESPECIALLY if the the childs life is threatened! Even I know that and I'm pro choice. Terry S.

So, you say you're not a bigot. this is not about homophobia, begotry, hatred of gay people, religious intolerance, or anything else. Despite overhwleming scientific evidence that homosexuality is an inborn as heterosexuality, despite the testimony of tens of thousands-- if not millions-- of gay people, despite the simple logic of the query of "who would choose this", you believe that homosexuality is a choice. Your beliefs about us are more important than any amount of actual evidence. But you're not a bigot. You say that it is not you that is disapproving of homosexuality, and not you that is judging, but God. Funny, I don't hear God talking, I only hear YOU talking. I hear you quoting "God's word", allegedly on this subject, while ignoring all of the passages in the bible that don't accord with your personal prejudices, whether it is eating shellfish or pork, or destroying all of the unbelievers in our midst with a sword. (Deut. 13-6, 8-15) Apparently God only means what he says some of the time, for instance, when he agrees with you. But you're not a bigot. Let us not get into the appalling divorce figures for 'sacred' marriage. Jesus was very clear on the subject: divorce is not an option. He also was quite clear about judging others before you yourself have achieved perfection. All of that you just cheerfully ignore, but not for any reasons that could be labeled bigotry. It's just what you believe. How can that be a statement of bigotry? You're very clear that based upon your religious beliefs, my HUSBAND and I are not entitled to the same responsibilities and benefits of marriage, even in a very obviously second class civil union, that you enjoy. In other words, my and our equality before the law can be compromised because of YOUR religious beliefs. If you said that Jews or Buddhists could not have the same civil rights that you do because they do not share your religious beliefs, you would rightly be labeled a religious bigot. But because it is about gay people, and whatever you imagine my sex life to be makes you say "ick", you are not being a bigot...so you say. Lest you accuse me of hating you, of being intolerant, of calling you names, let me be clear. I do not hate you, or care anything about you. I only wish that you would mind your own business and stop minding mine. You can believe whatever you want, and teach it to your children, and spew it in Church to your heart's delight, however uncomfortable it may be for me to hear it. It's a free country, at least for white, conservative, preferably christian, heterosexual people. What you hear from me, is not hatred, nor intolerance, nor anything like that. what you hear is ANGER. I'm sick to death that the course of my life, and my happiness, and those of millions of people just like me, can be subject to your prejudices, whether or not you prefer to call them your religous beliefs or just admit them for what they are. I am angry as hell that any man and woman who met five minutes ago and have $50 for a marriage license can get married and have the full panoply of rights and obligations that go with it, but my friends Andy and Paul, a devoted couple for 40 years, are legal strangers to each other. I'm really angry that my friend Steve could not be at his husband's bedside 20 years ago when Johnny was dying, because they didn't have the medical power of attorney documents in their possession when Johnny was struck down. Johnny died alone. Steve grieved for him alone, and didn't get to say goodby to the man whose life he had shared for 15 years. All of that pain to satisfy some Christian's beliefs about what is moral and immoral. I'm furious that people like you can smugly say we're all not perfect, but you'll still smarmily judge us anyway, and pretend that you're not. I'm furious that you prattle on an on about morality, but the IMMORALITY of what is done to gay people every day throughout the world, damage that is inflicted on our happiness and our lives all the time, does not even merit your notice. You don't approve of homosexuality, or as you put it, you're not in agreement with what you see as our "choice". Let me tell you something. I don't approve of bigots, either. But the world is full of people just like you, who feel you have the right to do and say whatever you like to people you don't know, whom you clearly know nothing about, and who have done you no harm. And why? Because there is something YOU don't like about them-- their race, their religion, their gender, their ethnic group, their language, or their sexual orientation. Please don't pray for me-- I don't need it and I find it offensive that you think you have the right and spiritual cachet to do so. Please don't tell me you love me, either. I would prefer your naked hatred. that, at least, is honest. And as for this garbage about civil unions being discirminatory, YOU can get married, we cannot. "Creating civil unions instead of same-sex marriage is discriminatory." Utter hogwash. This is the most twisted logic I've heard outside of Jerry Falwell blaming gay people for 9/11. Civil unions is a second rate attempt to address the discrimination inherent in marriage laws. so in the sense that gay people are not getting the full civil rights that everyone else has with civil unions, you are quite right. It is discriminatory. But you are not about to end that discimination and advocate full marriage for gay people. Instead, you bring up the nonsense you can find. If you are going to claim that gay people are not entitled to the same civil rights, the same benefits and responsibilities as heterosexuals when it comes to marriage and legal recongnition of our relationships, then at least have the courtesy to promote a rational argument-- something better than "ooh, gay people, icky icky." and "watch out, group marriage on the way", and "save the children from the homosexual menace." But then this is not really about marriage, is it? This is no more about marriage than sodomy laws are about God's will, than don't-ask-don't-tell is about military preparedness, than anti-gay-adoption laws are about what's best for the children, or any other anti-gay position. It is all about prejudice and nothing but prejudice, as it always has been. You are opposed to marriage for gay people simply because that will normalize us, and you will no longer be able to exercise your prejudice. What we gay people want--and what the Civil Union bill is just a small step towards-- is what you and most human beings on the planet want--peace, quiet, the opportunity to share our lives with those we love--without you, your church, or even our government saying: y'know, those blessings are not really for you. . Equal before the law only applies to those people we like and approve of. We don't like you, and we'll tell any lie, no matter how vicious or stupid, to make your lives as difficult as we can. We'll make any argument we can, no matter how obviously illogical and nonsensical to deny you that and allow us to maintain that prejudice. Failing that, we'll even say God hates you, if we can't come up with anything more plausible.

Thank you, Ben, for your long comment even though I disagree with much of what you've stated. Bigot; i.e., "a person who holds blindly and intolerantly to a particular creed, opinion, etc." I believe that I'm neither blind nor intolerant since I've spent quite a bit of time studying the Bible and other documentation and I'm as open minded as anyone can be to changing my mind; however, I have not seen any convincing evidence so far to change my mind on the issue. As far as "intolerance"; i.e., lack of tolerance, especially in matters of religion; unwilling to tolerate others' opinions, religious beliefs, etc."; it appears that you may be much more intolerant of my religious beliefs than I of yours...obviously I don't even know if you have any religious beliefs. My beliefs apparently make you very angry. Your beliefs do not make me angry in the least; I merely have an opinion based on my own study, etc. and disagree with you. You are free to have our own beliefs, but that does not mean that I agree with you. As far as your comment: Funny, I don't hear God talking, I only hear YOU talking" may I say that you might want to be careful quoting scripture (simplified: "God talking")then saying you don't hear Him? Plus, I have not ignored passages in the Bible that don't accord with my personal prejudices; i.e., eating shellfish or pork, etc. but unfortunately, you have not analyzed these texts according to their historical origins and cultural context nor recognized that some Biblical texts contain some things which are incomplete and temporary. I, too, can make the Bible say just about anything to support my opinion when I take things out of context or do not understand the Bible in its entirety and take one or two scriptures out of it to support my position; i.e., "spare the rod, spoil the child" has been used by child abusers to beat children and justify their actions by quoting this one particular scripture. You've made these scriptures mean whatever you want them to mean to support you and your lifestyle, but that does not mean that's what they mean. My beliefs are based on scripture, tradition, reason, culture and history. While you seem to reveal in the weight of numbers of homosexuals behind your cause; "popularity" has never guaranteed validity. As Henrik Ibsen states: "The majority is always wrong; the minority is rarely right." If you knew God more in depth or where willing to submit to Him, you'd know that He always means what he says and furthermore, He never changes His mind merely to support whatever the popular cause of the day is. Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ (simplified: God's son) is the same yesterday and today and forever." I personally find great comfort in the fact that He's always stable and trustworthy should I choose to follow Him. As far as you quoting divorce statistics for "sacred" marriage presummably for perhaps the purpose of showing that marriage is not sacred since so many people have divorced, I would caution you to be very careful since numbers have nothing to do with whether marriage is still sacred or not...I wonder what the "divorce" statistics might be 20 years from now among the homosexual population if they were allowed to enter into marriage today? And God/Jesus does allow divorce. Matthew 5:32: "But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to commit adultery...." God does warn us, however, not to commit adultery not for Him, but because it's best for us. Another correction, I would be the first to tell anyone that I'm not perfect so don't think I have insinuated that I am. You state: "it's a free country" and I agree. While I share your sadness that your friend Johnny died alone (I've had heterosexual friends who have died alone too since death sometimes happens suddenly and unexpectedly), it was not because of my religious beliefs but you said yourself, it was because Steve didn't have the medical power of attorney document with him. The only guarantee in life is that it changes, many times suddenly, and none of us know when exactly we'll die so as painful as it might be to accept, lack of expecting the unexpected may be more of an accurate statement of why Johnny died alone. My father-in-law and my father both died alone because we could not get to the hospital in time. This did not prevent me from mourning their loss but grief (like death), in and of itself, is done alone regardless of the circumstances. For comfort, you might read The Beatitudes found in Matthew Chapter 5. You state: "what gay people want...is what you and most human beings on the planet want--peace, quiet, the opportunity to share our lives with those we love--without you, your church, or even government saying: y'know, those blessings are not really for you." Unfortunately, without your own change of heart, "peace" may not come to you especially since you partly base it on every human being validating and accepting you which will likely never happen. But, not everyone validates or accepts me either, including apparently you. I also disagree that I am making your life as difficult as I can, or that I said that God hates you. God loves you, but that does not mean that He will change His beliefs for you. He is not required to submit to man, but man is given an invitation to submit to Him to find what He knows is best for us. Take it or leave it. Many will not ever accept same-sex marriage. "While in common with traditional marriage, same-sex unions may involve love, affectivity, monogamy and lifelong commitment; however, the two types of unions differ in essential features. Marriage is based on the sexual complementarity of woman and man. The marital union is intrinsically ordered towards family development and new life. Marriage is pro-creative (differing from merely reproductive) in the responsible creation, nurture and formation of children. Same-sex unions cannot be equated with marriage because they are not based on male-female complementarity and in themselves are not ordered towards the growth of family and new life. In Same-sex unions, development of family and new life are not naturally intrinsic to the relationship." Plus, your civil rights should not be confused with those of racial minorities. That analogy is tenuous at best, given the opinion that race is something given a person and essential to their being, while sexual preference is a lifestyle decision (I disagree that homosexuals are "born that way" but since you didn't provide any proof in your belief that you are born that way, I won't take up time supplying my "proof" either; I do concede that there are some anomolies in nature) made by individuals exercising their personal freedom. One's race or ethnic origins are unchangeable. Sexuality is at the will of individual persons and their conscious, moral decisions, and thus not constitutive in the same manner as race....while I did not choose to be born a woman, I do have the free will to choose my sexual preference and so do you. Your attempts to prey upon me or any other opponent of gay marriage to make us feel "guilty" or by calling me a bigot, homophobe, or anything else, does not have any bearing on my beliefs and what I think is "right" or "wrong." Narrowing your opinion down to: "it is all about prejudice and nothing but prejudice, as it always has been" is an over-the-top, simplistic view, not that you're not entitled to your view. I don't agree. I am not "opposed to marriage for gay people simply because that will normalize us" because I do not believe that it will "normalize" you. Unfortunately, you are basing your "happiness" on the external rather than internal. Gay marriage will not provide you peace and happiness anymore than it provides heterosexual couples peace and happiness. It's a bit more complicated than that and blaming your anger, rather than actually dealing with it, on those of us who oppose gay marriage, is like me blaming anyone else for my own lack of happiness because I'm white, female, misunderstood, yada, yada. Much of what you said, was your own opinion about what my opinion is...you do not know me anymore than I know you. But, I will pray for you and love you whether you want me to or not as that is also my right that you have absolutely no control over. I will pray that God reveal himself to you; He does promise that if You Will Seek Him, You Will Find Him. If you choose not to seek Him, so be it. I personally am glad that I had many life-changing experiences after I made my personal choice to seek Him. I wish you well and contrary to what you said, I do not like or dislike you since I don't even know you, and I am not the least bit offended that you disagree with me. I spent 10 years in counselling ministry and saw many homosexuals (and heterosexuals) experience healing in their sexuality through the power of the Holy Spirit, so you will have a hard time convincing me that if you seek God, you will not find Him and with Him a more peaceful, joyous life. I would prefer that we get to the root of what causes homosexuality as based on my experience many times it has alot to do with having been sexually abused as a child or some other mistreatment spiritually, emotionally or physically generally by someone trusted of the opposite sex. In my opinion, this is the real tragedy that needs to be addressed.

You assume I know nothing of God because I don't accept your version of God. What arrogance. You assume I am not at peace because I am angry. The only source of un-peace in my life comes from fundies like you who think that your religious beliefs are more important than my freedom from your religious beliefs. What arrogance. YOU know what causes homosexuality, despite every bit of actual, shall we say--SCIENTIFIC-- information on the subject. And since YOU know it's a choice, then of course, you chose to be hetero. You did, didn't you? I could go on and on with your comments--the logical, spiritual, analytical holes, the ongoing smug assumptions of the validity of your beliefs, but I know it is a waste of time. You believe your God said it, and you believe it, and that settles it as far as you're concerned. Other than telling you my whole life story, of telling you of same sex attractions since I was maybe three, of being very clear that there was no molestation, trauma, or anything like that, I cannot prove to you that my being gay is not a choice. But it doesn't matter, because you fundamentally cannot respect my word, and the word of millions of people just like me. You cannot even respect the Ted Haggards of the world, who spent their lives in your struggle, and definitely let your god into their hearts, but to no avail. You know the truth-- or your version of it-- AND THAT IS THAT! Many years ago, when I was fighting against an anti-gay initiative in my state, I met a lady on the opposite side who was so full of mis-information and the same kind of hate-disguised-as-love that you engage in. She asked me to write to her. (Her favorites were that all gay men are mass murderers and child molesters). I took all of her mateiral, copied it, and did some research. I showed her where nearly every statement she made was, according to reputable research and information, either a distortion or an outright fabrication. I did it respectfully. The next time I saw her, I asked her if she received and read my letter. Her response was: "I don't have time to read letters from homosexuals." Judy, you are just the same, except that you do take the time to read. 300 years ago, you would have been burning witches, with the absolute same moral certainty that you were doing God's will with which you now oppose the ending of discrimination based upon sexual orientation. As I said "Lest you accuse me of hating you, of being intolerant, of calling you names, let me be clear. I do not hate you, or care anything about you. I only wish that you would mind your own business and stop minding mine". And let me add one last observation. you say that the problem that Steven and Johnny had was because they didn't have the power of attorney document with them. Butter is not going to melt in YOUR mouth. If they were married, they would not have needed it. If they were hetero, it most likely would not even have been questioned. There was no necessity, other than plain old prejudice, for Steven not to be at Johnny's side, holding his hand.

Hi Ben, Much of your interpretation of my response seems to be merely your perception of my response, not my actual response. Yes, I believe God more than science (men), since God's perfect and we're not. I did not say that I know what causes homosexuality, I merely shared 10 years of my observation and experience with many homosexuals during counselling. You're entitled to think that I'm arrogant or even hate me for what I believe. It doesn't bother me. I don't hate you even though you don't think marriage should only be between a man and a woman although apparently you think I'm disguising my hate. If I am, I'm not connected to that fact, but I certainly will contemplate and pray about it. I sincerely don't feel that way toward any homosexual, but feelings are neither right nor wrong and are certainly subject to change. I stand by my first response so I think we'll have to agree to disagree since I have not changed your mind, nor have you provided me with any compelling evidence for me to change my mind. Also based on 10 years of ministry, many people who were abused as children do not even have a recollection of it until they begin counseling and working on themselves and why their life is not working. I once counselled two sisters who grew up in the same home; one said their father was an alcoholic, the other said that her father never drank. Obviously, since I know for a fact that he was a heavy drinker; one was in deep denial about it; in other words, for a time, she was not willing to face the truth about her father. I'm happy for you that you perhaps had a perfect childhood, many of us didn't. Also, being attracted to the same sex is more common than most people realize or perhaps like to admit...especially during adolescence when hormones are raging; however, that does not necessarily mean someone is a life-time homosexual. Many who have had a same-sex experience for whatever reason, live heterosexual lives from there on and see it as part of their experience of growing up. Some sexual experimentation is pretty common for alot of people. I wish you well.

Please read my post here on the grok of 6/13: "Biology and Sexual Orientation" very interesting to say the least

Well, I'm not sure what the point of saying anything on this site is but I'll type out a few thoughts. And for the record I'm a 3rd generation New Hampshirite so please stop assuming that the majority shares your views...most of us have evolved past elementary school playground thinking. Same sex pairings occur in nature. So, it's safe to say homosexuality is normal for some of the population. Unless you define "natural" to be something other than "found in nature", maybe it can only be natural if the good book says so. Whether in a zoo or observations in the wild over years, it's well documented that same sex pairings occur. Most of the earlier generations will always rationalize this behavior by saying such things as "it's dominance behavior". There are more lessens and teachings in the Bible about loving thy neighbor and acceptance than there is about hating .. And yet you fight for discrimination and practice hatred as a way of life. "Also, while the percentage of homosexuals is small, they have a higher rate of offenses against children then the general population ..." you make claims and site facts without sources, hmmm I wonder why. What about the heterosexual father who recently microwaved his 3 month old child - a minister in fact. I'm sure the first thing on your mind is "he must be gay", or how about the heterosexual mother who drowned her 5 children in a tub, or the heterosexual mother who strapped her 2 sons in the backseat and drove the car into lake, or the one who cut all the limbs off her child, or the heterosexual father who shot and killed his pregnant wife in the belly because he didn’t want the child and tried to make it look like a mugging... name me one gay couple or parent that has done any of these things. Should we say that since a higher percentage of heterosexual parents maim or kill their children, we should not allow heterosexual parents to raise them? If you speak of these tragic events, do you ever use the term "heterosexual" in describing them as you would if they where homosexual? Hmmm... but your not a bigot. A much higher percentage of heterosexuals prey on children. You probably claim that if a man harms a young boy, he falls under the gay category not the pedophile category. The fact is that a pedophile is going to put themselves in the most opportune position to prey on children, and that would be married to a woman who can produce them for him, or be in heterosexual relationship so he will be trusted. Anyone openly gay would be under a microscope or suspicion and is less likely to be a pedophile. Civil Unions does not give preferential treatment to a small group of people....it just allows them the same ones married couples have. And if State recognition of marriages is for the benefit of society because it helps in the welfare of children .... then why not have those benefits stop after the last child is legally an adult... those same legal protections of property and spousal rights last till death or divorce – not for the benefit of society or the children – and there are many, non children bearing heterosexual couples who are married. If you wouldn’t support a law that married couples without children who are minors can’t have the same rights as those that do – then stop using the “better for society and the welfare of children” argument.

Judy you reply to Ben, "My beliefs apparently make you very angry. Your beliefs do not make me angry in the least" You have no reason to be angry at his beliefs, they don't deny you any protections or rights. He and every morally sound human being has a right to be angry with you. Jesus said “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.” Not only do you yearn to cast the first stone, you want to throw as many as you possibly can.
One of the earliest casualties in the war in Iraq lost his leg to a roadside bomb. He served his country bravely and paid a dear price that I'm forever thankful for. He was gay. It sickens me that you fight to deny people like him the same rights you think are god given.

" If we all became homosexuals, since two men or two women cannot naturally procreate, we’ll just eventually die out I guess. No danger there." Do you really fear that if legal protection is given to homosexuals that it will lead to everyone becoming homosexual? Do you also believe that denying gays rights and promoting hatred towards them they will one day not exist?

Here's another thought on that subject...lets picture a world where all homosexuals have been eliminated, and everyone is encouraged to couple and reproduce - since we don't have an overpopulation problem now the reproduction in our society and other countries (Mexico included) will simply continue without any drain on existing resources.

Did you ever once consider that God created homosexuals to slow down the population growth, that maybe it's an inherent safety mechanism in a society. That maybe they where also created to take up the burden of unwanted, thrown away children of heterosexual couples...and that maybe your condemning it is a perversion and unnatural/unhealthy state of mind.

I think that as long as the population growth has a steady incline, resources start to diminish, the ratio of homosexuals to heterosexuals will increase, unless Judy's followers have there way and Gas chambers are introduced.

And for the record since you give the impression to be the voices of New Hampshire, where you all born and or raised in New Hampshire or where your values/morals developed elsewhere and now you consider yourselves an authority on New Hampshire values - I'm just curious?

Thank you all for your comments. All of us here at the 'Grok have and will never insist that anyone agree with our points of view. We appreciate hearing from anyone about just about anything and we even disagree on some issues among ourselves but we try to respect each others opinions because we realize that they are just that...our opinions. Insisting that I hate any homosexual does not make it so but it does appear that you'd feel better if I hated you but for what end purpose I do not know. So please feel free to explain to me why you seem so insistent that I must hate you because I truly do not understand why you want that to be true, okay? I have already stated that there are some anomolies in nature. They are an extremely small percentage. Comparing human beings to insects/animals, etc. is also fraught with some danger...we're just not the same now are we? Many homosexuals believe they were "born that way" because perhaps it makes them feel better about who they think they are perhaps since if they believe they have no choice, they're more self-accepting?...but isn't this merely a justification like the justification of homosexuality happening in the animal kingdom? And, it's simply not true that all scientists believe all homosexuals are "born that way"; in fact, there is no consensus among the scientific community and the most well-known scientists in the field, in fact, do not believe that there is a "gay" gene. For any info on the small percentage of the entire homosexual community having a higher percentage of abuses against children, higher depression, suicide and shortened life spans, since I'm certain that you will not believe me, the internet, etc. is full of information you can obtain although I still don't believe you will believe it even if you do your own research and find overwhelmingly that what I merely state is true. You can hate me for being a messenger but it still won't change any truth. Yes, I agree, that there are heterosexual couples/people who commit horrible crimes against children; it doesn't make it right...that is obviously not, I think, even relevant to statistics on the homosexual population. Out of the billions of heterosexual couples/people in the world, I'm guessing that there is a very small percentage of heterosexual couples or people that commit horrible acts against helpless children. Again, I have not researched this personally, but I'm sure you can. I think you may find that the vast majority of hetero people do not commit crimes against children. Personally, I cannot judge Ted Haggard's life or the state of his heart and whether he was even "saved" or not. Only God knows and none of us know the condition of anyone else's heart. However, perhaps he lied to himself and lived many lies for a very long time rather than seeking the truth that sets us free and perhaps healing for whatever it was he was dealing with. Since God created us with free will, I always find it disturbing when people want to blame God for anything and many things including many times their own poor choices made with their own free will. Saying it didn't work for him knowing God, takes him out of the equation. Many times God only does His part, when we do our part. We were not created to be God's puppets but to exercise our own free will preferrably under his guidance and direction. Some of what some of you wrote, just doesn't make any sense to me, but that's ok since you have an opinion and I have an opinion. I truly hope you all find happiness, but trying to make yourself feel better by insisting that I hate you, I'm a biggot, a homophobe, don't believe in equal rights, etc. will not likely accomplish your happiness but merely may feed your own anger and self-destruction. I still cannot stamp homosexual rights as a civil rights issue as is being born black, female, etc. There simply is just no compelling evidence to warrant it as a civil rights issue. However, it does greatly benefit the homosexual community to try to make us all believe that it is a civil rights issue by comparing themselves to people who had no choice being born black, etc. Please try to answer this question for me: if two men are meant to have sex together, why are they not complimentary to each other as are a male and a female? I look forward to your thoughts. Also, the divorce rate in NH is only 10% so using 50% divorce rate statistics don't fly here to justify anything. The vast majority of civil unions in Vermont since 2000 rose from 78% to 90% of NON-vermonters so why would that have any major affect on Vermont since most who get civil unioned don't even live in Vermont, not to mention that the "divorce" rate has continued to climb each year among homoseuxal couples in Vermont. Check State of Vermont civil union statistics easily available on the internet. 2/3 of civil unions formed in Vermont are among lesbians which, I think you'll agree, is also a very interesting statistic. Also note the age groups which is also interesting. I look forward to hearing from any of you who want to continue our dialogue. Best wishes

I believe most New Hampshirites have a live and let live philosophy towards life so hopefully your bigoted views will not win out against what's right. Democrats don't have all the answers but I think the majority of Americans are now voting democratic because we are sick of the Republican propaganda machine using extreme marketing, keywords (such as making Agenda a bad word, which you lemmingly use often), fear and lies to control or sway the American people.

Whenever I hear or read someone say "they say" when defending a point, red flags go up and I question whether the statements are true or not. Judy, when using your belief as a truth, please back it up with sources instead of just "you will find it on the internet", or "psychologists (unless gay) say". A bear is a bear, stop proving you're a bigot in one sentence and denying it in another, be proud of who you are.

I think it's pretty obvious that you believe gay people aren't born that way, and no amount of proof or truth would sway you. But if your wrong, what could the harm in your voicing your opinion and causing hatred and reasons for discrimination towards gay people be? Hmm, maybe depression and suicide, two of the very reasons you use to say homosexuality is wrong. You help create the very thing you use against gays.

David, Did I ever consider that God created homosexuals to slow down the population growth? No, but first I'd have to accept that God creates homosexuals. I find this line of thinking rather unusual and a bit of a stretch to get to the point of accepting your justification. And, please, gas chambers? Last time I checked, I'm not a Nazi nor have any desire to gas anyone, not that you'll believe me as you've already made up your mind apparently that I hate homosexuals and considering I have some friends who are who know that I am against civil unions and we still agree to disagree, it's really rather extreme thinking on your part. I have provided some info; check out my piece on sexual orientation and don't hesitate to post your proof that all gays are "born that way". I'm sorry, but some of what you say I quite frankly just don't understand what point your trying to make.

I never wrote that you where a Nazi or desired to gas anyone, and I'm sorry if you thought it implied, I mentioned your followers (readers). Hitler didn't come up with his hatred out of thin air, there where people just like you that planted seeds of hate long before him. You claim that you don't hate homosexuals, but you clearly hate homosexuality. By definition, one can't exist without the other.

If I said I hate the Jewish religion but loved Jews, and I fought to deny Jews certain rights based on my dislike of their religion, would you not consider me an anti-Semite? ( I use this analogy because you think being gay is a choice, like a religion is a choice)

Woo, hoo, I have followers! Just kiddin', thanks for your explanation on the gas chamber comment...as I said, some of what you write, I just don't understand your meaning. David, Are you obsessed with hate? It appears that you may hate me but feel completely justified because I don't agree with you. You don't agree with me, so what? Where did I ever say that I hate homosexuals? Disagreeing with someone's chosen lifestyle and hating them are entirely two different things. I disagree with married couples who commit adultery, but I don't hate them. Probably the closest group of people I could muster up some hate for might be pedophiles, but then I've also had the occasion to counsel a few of them to find that many were themselves subjected to horrible abuse as children and never got the help they needed. That's what I call a tragedy since perhaps some could have been helped before they became the very thing they hated as a helpless child. We'll never know. And again, send me your absolute proof that being gay is NOT a choice, and I'll by happy to read whatever proof you can document. If you read my "proof" from a majority of scientists in my sexual orientation piece, you will see that the experts in the field disagree with you and your insistence that you were born that way. So, what is it you want from me...I wasn't one of the scientists? Plus, I'm entitled to my freedom of religious belief just like the rest of America and perhaps it's God you hate because He doesn't agree with you? Discrimination against Jews is an entirely different matter altogether. And still no one has answered by question on explaining why two men are not complimentary partners sexually but a man and a woman are....

1st. Don't assume I must hate you simply because I disagree with you, or that I'm filled with hate because I think your actions are hateful. As I stated, if it looks like, walks like and talks like a bear, I'm going to think it's a bear. So yes, I think your acts of discrimination are hateful, and one’s actions define who they are.

2nd. I can't believe I got pulled into a debate with someone who uses Wikipedia as there "proof" - this is on the top of the very page you site as proof: "Information in this article or section has not been verified against sources and may not be reliable" The very least you could do is research the sources and use them as your proof.

3rd. I personally think the debate over whether being gay is chosen or not is irrelevant to whether the millions of gay people in America have the right to have their unions protected in the same way same sex couples do. Most gay people are not the pedophiles, drug users, and mentally challenged people you make them out to be.

4th. It's estimated that over 45K children are currently being raised by gay couples in the United States. I don't see how preventing the parents of these children from getting civil unions is a benefit to their well being or a protection of family values. 5th. This will be my last post on this site, so you can have the last word.

Huh? Too may inaccuries to answer. Plus, I'm still waiting for my answer or explanation of why two men are not complimentary sexual partners. But, I guess I'm not going to get an answer.... perhaps silence IS golden?